CARTER: Help with keeping levers tight, no "dangle"

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 19 Dec 2011 7:09 am

I'm setting up a new to me Carter and have one issue to fix.

The lever itself on all the knee levers, other than the vertical one, (always wondered why it's called vertical when actually it's horizontal?), are floppy at first connection to the rest of the pulling system. There's a roller pin that joins it.

For those who understand what I'm talking about, how can I make that connection tight like the vertical knee so they stay in the farthest open position (which is greater than vertical) and quit making me crazy as they get caught in the folds of my pants.

Thanks!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 19 Dec 2011 8:32 am

We call it vertical because of the direction of its operation.
With most guitars, you can tighten the bolt at the pivot, but unless you don't take it anywhere, you want to tighten it to stiff, not to lock.

I've never owned a Carter, just Emmons, Marlen, Zum and MSA. It'd surprise me if Carter varied much.

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 19 Dec 2011 8:53 am

Lane is correct-Just look carefully at the mechanics and you can ID the bolt that needs tightening.

Also, this may seem obvious to veterans, but in case you're relatively new at this, take the time to flip the guitar over into it's case before going at it with any tools and be GENTLE. It's a very strange angle to fit a crescent wrench up in there when working from underneath the guitar, and the first time I tried to do this fix, I didn't take the time to flip over the guitar and accidentally ripped off the head of the bolt due to downward tension toward the floor while turning the wrench! Thankfully it was easily replaceable, but there's nothing like going from loose to OFF!

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 19 Dec 2011 9:17 am

Fellows, like I said the levers are connected to the bell cranks with roller pins, NO NUTS AND BOLTS.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Dec 2011 9:19 am

I don't know much about Carters, but if the levers are attached to the hub with roll pins/tension pins, there's not much you can do to tighten up the connection like you can with bolts and nuts.

From the photos I see, that seems to be the case.

Maybe some Carter owners can offer some suggestions.

Alternately, I suppose you could drive out the pins, drill out the attachment points to fit say, a #6 screw and attach with a nylon insert nut.

...or drive the pins out and add a nylon shim between the lever and hub.

Big job either way, as the hubs would probably need to be removed and put in a vise to drive out the pins.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 19 Dec 2011 9:23 am

Odd. Not sure what you mean by "roller pin", but it almost sounds like a rivet.
If it has square shafts, pop the lever off, put it on a bench, use hammer and drifts to expand it. Be careful, as you could lock it up.

EDIT: If you mean spring pins, a shee t metal screw down the center could expand that sucker. Butt ugly, but it should work

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 19 Dec 2011 9:33 am

I think it's called a roll pin, not roller. I'll see if I can find a camera.

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 19 Dec 2011 9:39 am

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Dec 2011 9:48 am

Tension pin, roll pin, spring pin...called by several names.

These are tempered. You cannot successfully drill, drive screws or do anything else to these. They are driven or pressed in. It takes a punch called a roll pin punch to drive them out against a vise, which would require removing the hub.

Otherwise, you're probably going to break or bend something.

I suppose if you had a solid pin of exactly the right larger size, you might force that in the center of the pin hole, but I sure wouldn't try it.

You might check with Al Brisco if he has any remedies @ www.steelguitarcanada.com

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 19 Dec 2011 10:10 am

Thanks Jerry. I may just do that.

The vertical knee on the guitar stays put in the up position but will move on the bell crank, although of course there's no reason to as it's already "folded". It's attached the same way so I'm sure there's some trick to increasing the tension of this connection.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Dec 2011 10:15 am

Sorry I can't help you, but there are a bunch of Carter players here. They would probably be able to help you if there's a fix. Best of luck.

George Macdonald · Post by **George Macdonald** » 19 Dec 2011 10:25 am

Hi Brian, I don't have an answer to your question but just wanted to let you know that I have had a Carter 12 string universal since 2004 and 3 of my friends localy also have Carters. On all of these guitars the knee levers hang loose. I don't think any of us ever considered it to be a problem. I had a 1974 MSA before the Carter and I think the knees were loose on that guitar too. Anyway, good luck with your Carter, they are great guitars in my opinion.

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 19 Dec 2011 10:33 am

It's mainly just an annoyance, George. My Franklin levers stay back tight as did my MSA. I don't like the feel of it getting caught on the folds of my pants. It's no deal breaker but I guess I'm kinda picky about comfort and distractions when I play, plus I like to feel the levers against my leg and know when I move it's gonna change, not move an inch before it connects to the pulling system.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 19 Dec 2011 11:25 am

i'd try something like shoving a tiny rubber wedge into the clearance between the bracket and lever.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 19 Dec 2011 11:30 am

I have a Carter and both my left knee levers on my E9th neck "flop" like that. If you went to the trouble of removing the lever assembly from the guitar, you might be able to get the roll pin out. To me it is not that big of a deal to go to all that trouble. I have seen several other makes that have "floppy levers" (sound like something my ex used to say to me).

I don't think a screw and nut would work due to the thickness of the aluminum where this pin goes through. See pic above.

And now for the smart ass, sarcastic answer of the day -- Super Glue.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 19 Dec 2011 11:30 am

Jerry, you mean trying to swage it tighter by expanding it with a screw won't work?

I imagine that'd bug me no end

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 19 Dec 2011 11:37 am

I think the pins are too hard to thread a screw into the hole. It would be worth a try, but again, I think for some, if not all, of the levers, you need to remove them from the guitar to be able to get enough torque to do it. Possibly a tap might work and then use a screw, don't know.

It doesn't affect how the guitar plays, and several other makes have floppy levers.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Dec 2011 12:10 pm

The gauge of the pin metal and the temper/alloy is too great to allow a screw to thread in there, even a self tapping type. Don't even think about a tap. It will just break off. This is tough stuff.

Used in the automotive industry in lots of applications. One in particular, used to hold the oil pump drive gear to the distributor. I've tried to defeat it on several occasions for different reasons, but no dice.

If you don't care about boogering the metal on the KL's, you could probably clamp vice grips on either side of the lever above or below the pin and tighten it up, but it would probably eventually wear down. FWIW, that's probably what I'd do if it were that much annoyance to me. Function before form every time for me. Either that or take 'em off and work 'em for machine bolts and nylon insert locking nuts.

I repeat, best to check with Al or other owners/servicemen that have attempted to alleviate the problem for their advice.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 19 Dec 2011 12:56 pm

Well, if it really bothers you, you could knock it out with a drift and then, replace it with an appropriate size and length machine screw, plus washers and tighten it with a nyla-lock nut ( it's a hex nut with nylon in the center which keeps it from getting loose.) Trying to expand the that rollpin is going to be tedious and you might bugger the whole thing up, including the bracket, which looks like aluminium.

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 19 Dec 2011 1:16 pm

I recommend getting a gig in "Vagas" where you don't have to wear pants.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 19 Dec 2011 1:37 pm

I'd concur with John de Maille. You should be able to re-fasten them with machine screws and lock nuts. I've never owned a Carter but both the Zum and the Sierra I currently own have some play in the dangle of the levers. It's of no consequence as far as playing is concerned. The important thing is the tension of the lever and its travel, what could be called its action. They need to be loose enough to fold up easily when you pack up. If they're really wobbly--back and forth as opposed to the direction they move it could be irritating but the lock nuts and screws should fix that.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 19 Dec 2011 1:39 pm

I'd concur with John de Maille. You should be able to re-fasten them with machine screws and lock nuts. I've never owned a Carter but both the Zum and the Sierra I currently own have some play in the dangle of the levers. It's of no consequence as far as playing is concerned. The important thing is the tension of the lever and its travel, what could be called its action. They need to be loose enough to fold up easily when you pack up. If they're really wobbly--back and forth as opposed to the direction they move it could be irritating but the lock nuts and screws should fix that.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 19 Dec 2011 9:34 pm

Brian McGaughey wrote:and quit making me crazy as they get caught in the folds of my pants.

It sounds like the guitar, or at least the levers, are too high in relation to your knees. If the knee levers are the right height they would lay next to your leg/knee and your pants wouldn't catch on them. I had that same problem on one used steel I bought. Lowering the guitar solved the problem very nicely.

Another solution might be to have longer levers installed.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 20 Dec 2011 1:49 am

Put a large rubber 'O' ring (or an elastic band) over the lever, and hold the lever in the playing position by manipulating the 'O' ring around the back of the lever assembly (arrowed)

Brian McGaughey · Post by **Brian McGaughey** » 20 Dec 2011 6:47 am

I'm going to try that, Richard. I had originally tried rubber bands but didn't quite work. I think if I find the right sized elastic O ring or band it'll do it.

I won't bother to remove them and have the roll pins pressed out and replaced with screws. Though that seems the best ultimate fix, the expense and hassle factor isn't worth it to me for this particular guitar.

Mike, you're on to something there. Although I actually raised this guitar to the same height as the other guitar I regularly use, the levers ARE shorter.

It's still puzzling that the vertical lever is tight enough to remain up without falling down put still has slack enough to pivot, and it's joined the same way with a roll pin. The lever is a unique shape to the others so I suppose it's manufactured tighter and specifically fit-n-finished that way during assembly.

Thanks all!

The Steel Guitar Forum

CARTER: Help with keeping levers tight, no "dangle"

CARTER: Help with keeping levers tight, no "dangle"

Carter

"loose" knee levers

"loose" knee levers

Re: CARTER: Help with keeping levers tight, no "dangle&