Non-pedal Approach to the Pedal Steel?

Al Gershen · Post by **Al Gershen** » 21 Apr 2000 3:47 pm

Hi group:

I've read in SGF postings different comments about the early pedal steel guitars, such as the Gibson Electraharp and the Harlin Brothers Multi-kord that these instrument were not good to play "single string" style using their pedals (as you would using the AB pedals on the E-9th). (This may be why these guitars lost their popularity in favor of other more versitle pedal steel guitars.)

This leads me to the thought (and this is why I posted this on the No Peddlers board) about developing suggestions for a pedal steel guitar such that the pedals would provide tuning changes, similar to those achieved using a multi-neck non-pedal steel guitar.

Please don't get technical with me and say something like: "Any pedal you press on any pedal steel guitar results in a tuning change."

I know this but what I'm looking for are those pedal changes you non-pedal players would put on either a single neck or double neck pedals steel guitar so as to emulate a multi-neck non-pedal steel guitar.

If this is an achieable goal, we can probably eliminate the need for using any knee levers in this discussion.

So please forget about the pedal arrangements you've either used or seen for the E-9th, C-6th or Universal B-6th. Try to come up with some original suggestions.

Another thing to consider is what base tuning will you use on each neck with these pedal changes?

I look forward to hearing from you on this subject.

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Regards,
Al Gershen
Grants Pass, Oregon. USA
Fender 1000 and Fender PS 210

Fred Layman · Post by **Fred Layman** » 21 Apr 2000 4:52 pm

Al: What you are requesting is precisely what the Gibson and Multi-Kord steels did, i.e, permit playing the standard tunings used on mult-neck guitars in the '40s and '50s on a single neck by changing to those standard tuning by pushing a pedal. The player normally held a pedal down for the whole song, using straight, left-slant and right-slant bars in the same way that they had been used on the multi-neck steels

The manual for the Gibson Electraharp 8-string recommended an E7th basic tuning (smallest to largest string = E,B,G#,E,D,B,G#,E). Pedal 1 changed the two G#s on strings 3 and 7 to G, for an Em7th. Pedal 2 raised the second string from B to C# for an E13th tuning. Pedal 3 changed strings 2 and 6 to a C, strings 3 and 7 to A, and strings 4 and 8 to F# for a D9th tuning. Pedal 4 changed strings 2 and 6 to C#, strings 3 and 7 to A, and string 4 to F# for an A6th tuning.

I have a manual for a 6-string Multi-Kord. The basic tuning there was an AMj (smallest to largest = E,C#,A,E,A,E). Pedal 1 raised string 4 to F# for an A6th tuning. Pedal 2 changed string 2 to C, string 4 to F# and string 6 to D for a D7/9th tuning. Pedal 3 changed string 2 to B, string 3 to G#, and string 5 to B for an EMj tuning. Pedal 4 changed string 3 to G# and string 5 to B for a C#m7th tuning. Hope this is what you had in mind. Of course, other tunings evolved along the way.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 22 Apr 2000 1:14 am

Tommy Morrell has five slotted levers on his new CW non-pedal steel. It is a ten string steel and his basic tuning is:
G
E
C
A
G
E
C
A
F
C
Each lever is designed to move up or down a certain number of strings to make a whole different tuning. He uses about 3 different tunings and can actually do 5 or 6 different ones. I talked to Tommy quite a bit about my new 10 string SS HAWAIIAN; and barely about his steel, last time I saw him; so I didn't retain the different tunings exactly. It's pretty easy but you have to know what each lever is used for and I didn't get into that with him.
Ricky

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 22 Apr 2000 1:56 pm

Hi Al,
The pedal steel CAN be used to emulate a multi neck non pedal steel, many have done it before me, but I have been doing it since the early sixties so I think I can answer MOST of your questions.
Take a listen to "Sleepy Lagoon" "Analani E/Pua Mana" and "How Dya Do" at my web site on the page called Links. You'll also find a listing of the pedal changes etc on the page called Young

Basil.
Regards, Basil Henriques. http://homepage.tinet.ie/~basilh/

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basilh · Post by **basilh** » 22 Apr 2000 2:30 pm

Al, further to my last post,
The possibility of getting Most of the non pedal tunings by using a pedal guitar JUST to change tunings the same as you would change necks has always been an integral part of my playing.
Because of the limitation of early pedal guitars I used this set up :-
basic open tuning = A7
E, C#, A, G, E, C#, A, G, E, A.
Pedal 1 takes the G's to G#
Pedal 2 takes the A's to B
Pedal 3 takes the first and second strings to F# and D# (Eb)
Pedal 4 takes the C#'s to C
Pedal 5 takes the G's to F#
Pedal 6 takes the A's to B
Pedal 7 takes the E's to F#

The use of BOTH feet is required, but this is no problem as the volume pedal is not used as much in Hawaiian style playing.
This set-up gives straight bar chords of :- A7, A6, E6, C6, AMAJ7, CMAJ7, E6/9MAJ7, C7, A9, D9, A13, A13b5, Edim, D9AUG, and Many more. Experiment ! and have fun.
BTW With "Analani E/Pua Mana" I did lead "Keoki" and a few others into thinking that I might NOT be playing a pedal guitar.
I Think that the prime requisite is that you DON'T pedal notes as you do with the A+B pedals on the E9th.
Happy Easter from Ireland to all Forumites

[This message was edited by basilh on 22 April 2000 at 03:37 PM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Apr 2000 2:37 pm

Al, I know exactly what you are asking and I thing Fred Layman covered it eloquently.

I wish to make this comment. The PSG as we know it today IMHO, transcends the need to "change the basic tuning".

Back in the days of multi neck steels with 2, 3, 4 or 6 necks was the best we could achieve until the Multi-kord and the Electra-Harp came along.

These early "pioneer" PSG's were part of the evolution to the moving tone sound that is what is standard today.

I really think to setup one or more pedals so that it changes the basic tuning to another "basic" tuning is a step backwards in time. Not to mention what Fred said about having to hold one's foot on that pedal for an entire tune.

The evolution to the present "Standard D-10" (E9th/C6th) is the culmination of the above.

Where we go from here I do not know. Some say a U-12. I am not sure, even though I just received my first one. At least not for the masses.

Like one poster said, as long as the "super stars" play a D-10, I see nothing really changing on the horizon.

My opinion of course.

Think of what HE did tomorrow folks. The only time its been done in the history of man. He rose from the dead in 3 days, after dying the most horrible death ever known, just like he said he would. Praise God our Lord,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 22 April 2000 at 03:38 PM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 22 Apr 2000 2:48 pm

Carl, I don't think that multi-neck players stay on the same neck for the whole tune, so I think that negates the statement regarding

"Not to mention what Fred said
about having to hold one's foot on that pedal for an entire tune."

Personaly I don't think that the E9th /C6th is the end of the evolution of the D-10.It continues here on the "Forum" as well as out there.
[This message was edited by basilh on 22 April 2000 at 03:49 PM.]

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 22 Apr 2000 6:40 pm

I THINK what you really are asking, ( I may be wrong)...has already been done, My teacher, John Auna, ( Mahalo, John!)...has his teaching "plank"...set up w/ a hipshot multiple tuner...works like a charm...6 string guitar, short scale, I'm not sure what the basic tuning is, but the changer is set to go from C6 to B11 and ( I think ) C#m9th...Works wonderfully, stays in tune after the strings work in....and I've seen him switch tunings mid-tune...you just need enough room behind the bridge for it....It's the only guitar he travels with and it's like a triple neck in a single little guitar...and it's not like hauling a super valuble instrument around, it was rather inexpensive....fits in the overhead on a plane, in a gigbag, and one of the first lessons he taught me was...It's NOT the Instrument, but the musician...His playing on that "plank" is incredible....the tone's in your hands....as long as the pickup works decently...it's all you need...
Aloha,
Mike[This message was edited by mikey on 22 April 2000 at 07:43 PM.]

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 23 Apr 2000 3:12 am

Hey Al,
Check this out! I saw a six string lap steel once which had the slotted headstock like a dobro. On strings one and three the guy had Keith/Scruggs banjo tuners with the stops on them. The basic tuning was E7th which was low to high B D E G# B E. With the tuners he'd lower string one to D and string three to G which then made a G6th tuning which was B D E G B D. I have this on one of my lap steels but I have to tune it without the tuners. I have a set of them I took off of an old banjo I'd like to try it with but my lap steels dont have slotted headstocks. Maybe I'll try it on by dobro.

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Have a good one! JH U-12[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 25 April 2000 at 10:09 AM.]

Frank Venters · Post by **Frank Venters** » 24 Apr 2000 10:33 am

Do any of you gentleman remember the old Carvin steel guitars? I beleive in the early/mid 60's they had a single 8 with a cam device on the bridge.In the forward postion I would assume was the standard tuning one would use,then raise the cam straight up for a second tuning,then all the way back for a third tuning. I always thought back then that Carvin was junk, compared to their guitars they build today, tho they don't build steel guitars anymore. I understand that the pedal guitars they built in the mid/late 60's were real bad. I don't know that for a fact, just rumors.The cam idea doesn't sound too bad though. 73's...Frank

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 24 Apr 2000 11:08 am

I've often considered putting an 8 string C6 or maybe A6 on an old Fender single neck cable guitar with some "bare bones" changes on it,but approach it like a nonpedal instrument with multiple tunings.And I know others w/nonpedal backgrounds have done this.But in thinking thru the process,I'm afraid that pretty much the same changes that occur to me to put on this hypothetical guitar-are ALREADY on the standard C6 pedal guitar.Let's face it-you can only pull a string so far and you can only pull so many strings per pedal.So whatever you put on a pedal is likely to create a chord that is somehow RELATIVE to the original tuning.Thus inviting pedal use within a song-which brings us back to the modern style of "playing" the pedals....I find it challenging enough to REALLY learn my way around just ONE fixed tuning like C6 - let alone 3 or 4 other tunings or simulating them w/locking levers,etc.In short,as soon as you start putting tuning gadgets on there,you might as well play a PSG. -MJ-

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 25 Apr 2000 9:13 am

I don't know if it's ever been tried, but the HipShot company has a bridge called the Trilogy which is a six string bridge with a lever system behind it which you can set to 3 preset notes per string. Think of the combinations you could get with that thing! They make one for the Telecaster guitar and one for the Stratocaster. From looking at the pictures in the Stewart McDonald catalog I think the Strat model might work on lapsteel!

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Have a good one! JH U-12