Nationals - help!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 4 Dec 2011 6:51 am

I was recently informed by someone who I consider to be something of an Elder Statesman among steel players that I should totally abandon using my beloved (and oh-so-comfortable) Dunlop .025"s and start using Nationals.

Well, I'm trying. I'll immediately concede that there's a slight improvement in tone (that surprises me - I still don't understand why...) but they're really causing some discomfort just below the cuticle - fifteen minutes of woodshedding and I have to take 'em off!

Any tips, please?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 4 Dec 2011 6:53 am

PS: The picks in my avatar are my old Dunlops - see how happy I look?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 4 Dec 2011 7:11 am

I'm a Dunlop picker also, they just fit and feel better.
I like the thinner gauges, however, they just conform better to my fingers.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 4 Dec 2011 9:33 am

Come on, guys! Was Jeff Newman justified in reviling the Dunlops, or was it just his opinion?

Glenn Uhler · Post by **Glenn Uhler** » 4 Dec 2011 1:04 pm

Roger,
Not everyone's fingers are the same size, nor are your fingertips totally round. (Look at your finger "head-on". They are oval.) The Dunlaps might have been made for slightly larger fingers. Women have to bend the picks smaller so they will fit. Some peoples fingers taper more than others. Mine are straight like sausages and round on the ends.

You have pain at your cuticles because the "funnel" of the Nationals are bent on more of a taper than the Dunlops. Even the new Dunlops have more taper than my old Nationals.

To get them to fit better, measure the diameter of your fingertip and then find an old drumstick or wooden dowel that is the same diameter. Take a pliers and wrap the jaws with duct tape. Use the pliers to squeeze the pick around the stick, taking out most of the taper. Last, take the pick off the stick and mash the band down just a little bit from top to bottom (to look like your oval finger). Now you can tighten the band to your liking.

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 4 Dec 2011 1:42 pm

Roger ,
Have you tried Kyser picks ?
They are very similar to Nationals, only more comfortable, for me at least.

BTW, Two types of Nationals are available, ones with block letters and others with script. Tha latter feel about the same as the Kysers....
Any info ?

Ronnie Boettcher · Post by **Ronnie Boettcher** » 4 Dec 2011 8:17 pm

I still use my "OLD" Nationals. Have a bunch from the 50's, and early 60"s. And very happy with them.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 4 Dec 2011 9:42 pm

Nationals are fine--just take a pliars and shape them for YOUR comfort.

Roger Francis · Post by **Roger Francis** » 5 Dec 2011 7:59 am

I just tried out a set of JF picks this past wknd, even after playing them at home a couple hours it took me the whole first set to get use to the attack on the strings after using pro-picks for a year. I have nationals i've used for years but it seemed i was always ajusting them back on my fingers all night even though i formed them to my fingers. So far i realy like these picks, when they arived i only made some slight ajustments to them and they fit great and stay put, i even like the tone of my guitar a little better.
Not trying to change the subject but has any one tried the bugga-blue thumb picks? I've been looking at these too.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 5 Dec 2011 12:21 pm

i've used lots of types and some are more comfortable, but i always come back to the nationals. ..not so much for tone but for the fact that they are strong and i can really clamp them onto my fingers. i hate picks that are insecure and ready to fall off.

Ray Kedge · Post by **Ray Kedge** » 5 Dec 2011 12:49 pm

Roger, give them Kysers a go Iv'e been using them for years now very easy on the fingers and a decent gauge of metal.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 5 Dec 2011 1:08 pm

I've always used Dunlops .015's. I don't get any discomfort at all. Nationals need too much shaping for me.

Roger - with your infinite disposable income you could try the Sammy Shelor stainless steel finger picks. A mere $34.75/pair

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 5 Dec 2011 1:32 pm

I certainly appreciate the trouble many of you have gone to to answer my query.

I'm really trying to get to the bottom of why some people (Jeff Newman among them) have always said that the Dunlop style of pick is a disadvantage and a hindrance to clean playing.

Is it the rounded tab that encircles the fingertip and the fact that it could catch an adjacent string? No-one on this thread has so far suggested this is the case, and I wonder why it's been so oft-repeated elsewhere.

Ken: I use Dunlops too (mine are .025") and that's my point - they're exquisitely comfortable! Re-read my original post....

John Drury · Post by **John Drury** » 5 Dec 2011 1:47 pm

Roger,

Not an "elder statesman" by a long shot, but I would never switch from the Kyser "Old Styles". I bought a box of them from Charlie Day years ago for around 20 bucks. I am not sure what ga. they are but they form really easy and what is really slick about them is that half of them have one less hole in the ring than the other half.

Guys like me that use two picks can readily see wich pick goes on wich finger. Never had a problem with them catching, flying off, etc.. They feel great! I also like the John Pearse thumb picks, the combination has worked well for me.

John Drury · Post by **John Drury** » 5 Dec 2011 1:58 pm

Ken Byng wrote:I've always used Dunlops .015's. I don't get any discomfort at all. Nationals need too much shaping for me.

Roger - with your infinite disposable income you could try the Sammy Shelor stainless steel finger picks. A mere $34.75/pair

Ken,

Please don't take this the wrong way but if someone is shelling out $35- for a pair of picks, tone issues are more than likely the least of their problems.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 5 Dec 2011 3:09 pm

don't know what jeff's problem with some picks was but perhaps he felt the curved shape of the pick end lost the ability to grab the string the way the flatter national end does. ??

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 5 Dec 2011 3:52 pm

I like and use the new NP2 Nationals
A couple bucks a piece or less and several types available from Elderly Instruments.
http://elderly.com/search/elderly?terms ... s&x=7&y=10

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 5 Dec 2011 4:17 pm

When I took Jeff's 1 week school he was very clear about the fact that "they are YOUR picks" and to spend what ever time it took with needle nose pliers to make them fit YOUR fingers. I happen to use old Nationals and when it's time to change to a "new" set due to wear issues, it takes at least an hour or more of tweeking and bending to get them right and fitting correctly. When I'm done, they are "MY PICKS"!
JE:-)>

Larry Rafferty · Post by **Larry Rafferty** » 5 Dec 2011 5:19 pm

Of all the picks I've ever tried my preference is the National Nickel Silver shown below.

Maybe its just my imagination, but I can still remember the clear ringing sound of a silver coin when dropped on the table (or sidewalk).
Any metal other than silver has a dull thud...like any our coins made after 1964.
I also spend about 15 minutes on each new pick, carefully shaping it with a pair of needle nosed pliers.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 6 Dec 2011 5:16 am

Roger Rettig wrote:I certainly appreciate the trouble many of you have gone to to answer my query.

I'm really trying to get to the bottom of why some people (Jeff Newman among them) have always said that the Dunlop style of pick is a disadvantage and a hindrance to clean playing.

Is it the rounded tab that encircles the fingertip and the fact that it could catch an adjacent string? No-one on this thread has so far suggested this is the case, and I wonder why it's been so oft-repeated elsewhere.

Ken: I use Dunlops too (mine are .025") and that's my point - they're exquisitely comfortable! Re-read my original post....

Yes I was agreeing with you Roger. I have been using Dunlops for so long that I don't even know I'm wearing them. Like you, I find the Nationals dig in too much. I suppose that some time could be spent re-shaping the Nationals, but I buy my Dunlops a box at a time, and I have around 40 left. They will be my only choice I'm afraid.

Robert Jenkins · Post by **Robert Jenkins** » 6 Dec 2011 6:47 am

Maybe its just my imagination, but I can still remember the clear ringing sound of a silver coin when dropped on the table (or sidewalk).
Any metal other than silver has a dull thud...like any our coins made after 1964.

While this may well be true, nickel silver has no silver in it. It's a copper alloy with nickel, named for its appearance rather than its composition (I have a nickel silver National. It would cost 10s of thousands if there were any sliver in it.).

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 6 Dec 2011 7:53 am

I guess I should note that I have a pair of each and enter change them with out any problems.
The nationals seem to stay on better and my dunlops have shrink wrap tubing that I put on them.
Maybe I will put shrink wrap on a pair of nationals.
Buy em and try em.
Everyone is different

Brian Herder · Post by **Brian Herder** » 6 Dec 2011 12:10 pm

When I started playing steel I had Dunlops and the flair in the ring used to catch adjacent strings. I have been using Kysers and Nationals for many years and while less comfortable, a little time spent bending them to shape makes them ok.. it's been a lot longer than I care to think about.
A banjo playing friend gave me a set of those Sammy Shelor picks that I use for dobro. They are extremely comfortable but bigger than the others. It took me a while to get used to but I don't want to go back, so i hope I don't lose them! They would probably be too cumbersome for steel, but are excellent for dobro where you need a little more power.

Larry Rafferty · Post by **Larry Rafferty** » 6 Dec 2011 2:00 pm

[quote="Robert Jenkins) While this may well be true, nickel silver has no silver in it. It's a copper alloy with nickel, named for its appearance rather than its composition (I have a nickel silver National. It would cost 10s of thousands if there were any sliver in it.)

I do not make finger picks, but I have been a professional numismatist for more than 50 years.
During the WW2 years 1942-45 Nickel-Silver U.S. Nickels were produced by the U.S. Mint.
The composition was: .560 copper, .350 silver, and .90 manganese. The pure weight of silver in each coin was/is .05626 ounces.

The current (today) silver bullion price of $32.41 per ounce means that each nickel contains $1.82 cents worth of silver. A finger pick (made from the same alloy) weights a few grams less than the nickel coin...so there is about $.90 worth of silver in a copper/silver/nickel fingerpick.

Robert Jenkins · Post by **Robert Jenkins** » 6 Dec 2011 4:36 pm

Larry,
I apologize for any appearance of disrespect. I also apologize for the ambiguity of my example. I now realize that when I said that I have a nickel silver National, in a thread about National finger picks, it was pretty stupid of me not to make it clear that I'm referring to my tricone (which is really heavy. Way heavier than a finger pick.).
Here's where I got the Information about nickel silver (also known as german silver): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_silver
I hope this clears things up.

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