On Getting Better..,

[David Easley]

I'm not so sure about the ceiling thing. An older person may never improve as quickly as he did in his teens or twenties but it's fun to keep trying and, as Bob Dylan said, "he not busy being born is busy dying."

This thread brings me back the memory that in my first band there was a guy who could tell us the chords to any song we wanted to learn while, at that time, I didn't even know what a 1, 4, 5 progression was. Several of us went on to become professional musicians but that guy, who was so knowledgable, wasn't that excited about it and he grew up to do things completely un-related to music.

[Clete Ritta]

In the physical sense there is a use it or lose it factor. The brain puts knowledge learned from playing on the back burner if its no longer a priority. Practice is where music is somewhat like a sport. The more you train, the stronger you get, until you are near your ceiling. If you dont practice, you may still remember everything learned, but the muscle synapses fire slower at first (the term rusty often bandied) till they are up to speed again. The old adage its like riding a bicycle, you never forget how to do it fits. Muscle memory is closely linked with the ear and musical ability in this thread. Another ceiling limit is conscious memory itself, which often fades naturally with age, so hold on to those memories! Whats the first verse, again!?

Clete

[Andrew Roblin]

Great topic, Mark.

Philosophically, I like to believe there are no limits to what any of us can do musically. Realistically, there are limits to all human abilities. But what are those limits?

As Mark suggests, "talent" can be an unhelpful concept. A person can start with very limited musical ability or talent and go a long way.

For instance, when I was learning guitar at age seven I had trouble hearing pitches. So I broke a lot of strings. Later, at age 10 or so, I was kicked out of the school choir for not singing in tune. I had similar challenges with rhythm.

But I loved music, so I persisted. In time, I acquired a degree of competence and, later, mastery. I've been a professional musician since age 16 and continue learning new instruments and music. I'm still growing and enjoying myself and haven't hit my limit yet.

After I play, people often tell me of their own lack of talent. Or they tell me I have a gift.

I don't see it that way. I think our potential as humans far exceeds our perceived limits. I think people often use comments about "talent" as a way to put themselves or others down.

Andrew Roblin
International Sho-Bud Brotherhood
Member #79

[David Mason]

Another ceiling limit is conscious memory itself, which often fades naturally with age, so hold on to those memories!

I am quite certain that playing music, and learning new music, is just about the best favor you can do for your brain's aging. Or against it, rather.... We've got violinists well into their sixties who can remember every note of every concerto they need to play (it's usually hand or other health problems that slow these guys eventually). Of course that kind of memory involves grouping and clustering and categorization - but that's a pretty exact description of what "memory" IS and how it works.

For whatever reasons, these brains that evolved chasing after antelope and running away from tigers (and B.S.-ing about it 'round the campfire afterward, at least the quick ones that Darwin let past the tigers), have a powerful natural affinity for music. It just sort of IS what we're supposed to do, like language blown through a kaleidoscope. Little kids stop singing (and dancing) because adults have told them to shut up and behave.

It might* be an unethical medical experiment, but let's say you took a pair of young twins, split them up and assigned them each a task they had to do for five hours a day, every day, for the rest of their lives. You hand one twin a guitar (attach a lifetime of lessons), and the other one a TV remote control (with 250 channels). Now fast-forward 70 years - one of 'em's catatonic (a little twitch now and then) and the other one's chasing the nurses around the retirement home. Which one's which?

*(the average American does watch television for - five hours a day! Every day. But, just look how great we've ended up anyway!)

[Clete Ritta]

Great point David. I was going to mention that its been proven that teaching music to children at a very early age helps them in learning generally. Music has the abstract time and space math in rhythm and scale/chord formula that stimulate the brain in learning these concepts when math and other sciences are introduced. So whether physically capable of playing or not, the study of music helps the memory!

Clete

[Mark van Allen]

Wow- exactly the kinds of responses I was hoping for. Thanks so much, guys!
I think I'm in the same camp as Mike Neer- I see more "Ears" being needed for music than "Talent". And Ear Training is a very real pursuit. I remember when hearing the difference between a 1 and a 3m wasn't a part of my world.

I played guitar for years in Jr. High and High School and never got much past playing basic chords to accompany singing, maybe picking up a few licks. It took joining a band and starting on steel to make me revisit my learning process and start really digging in on 6 string. In my case at least, the desire to get better finally overtook my aversion to music theory and structured practice.
The joy that I found in making musical growth kept reinforcing the study and application of theory, and the obvious benefits of technique and stamina kept me returning to physical practice.
I do feel that any "ceiling" I might have is only due to my own investment in time and mental commitment. It's always excited me that there will always be more to learn.
I think it's easy to look at an Emmons, a Franklin, Douglas and many others and say, "I'll never achieve that level, too bad I'm not that talented..." but have we invested the same levels of commitment and time they have? It may be easier to blame a lack of "talent" rather than a lack of incentivized study, practice, concentration, and motivation.

I've made a very conscious decision to explore many aspects of life and relationships knowing full well I was trading away some musical potential by dividing my time between other interests. I'm mostly satisfied with my level of musicality, but the vast room for improvement keeps me going back to the shed when I can.

[Jerome Hawkes]

i have to tell the story of my mother - who after my father died, decided to take up piano, mainly to ease the loneliness and grief, but also because she always wanted to play. being a musician and knowing how tough it is in the beginning, i thought she would mess around with it for 6 months and move on.

well, at age 66, without EVER so much as knowing how to carry a tune ( i know as i sat beside her in church for years - awful..) or anything other than a love of music - she found an excellent teacher and by the first year was playing things that just blew my mind - i've never seen someone so excited, as if a little kid to get to piano lessons each week. one thing i have noticed is she is given constant positive praise for each goal/tune learned (i know this is an age of that technique in children, but i do think for an adult it may be even more beneficial as we've been conditioned for failure) - its so funny because we were NOT a family of praise and 'good job, well done" parents, and i just tell her she was a good typist when she was young and thats why she is doing so well - haha, getting her back - but it really is astounding to see her progress and love of playing.

it may be that natural talent does lay dormant waiting for it to be unlocked.

[Mark van Allen]

Jerome, that's so great about your Mother. Reminds me of my experience with piano which was somewhat on the opposite end of the spectrum.
My parents were from the generation that believed music was part of education and got me piano lessons at a young age. I did fairly well at it, but I remember thinking that scales were arduous "finger practice" (I hated!) and that "real" music could only be produced by those guys represented by the little plaster heads on the piano.
If only my teacher would have said, "Ok here's 'Fur Elise' which you like... and here's a C major scale. Do you see how the notes are all in the scale?" I would have been much more engaged and interested.

When I got to my second teacher and she hit me with a ruler for playing by ear instead of following the score, lessons were over for me. How differently things might have gone had I found a nurturing, understanding instructor who knew how to motivate me.
It took motivating myself to learn to love practice.

These days I have to carve out time for practice, but when I do, I'm very happy to spend hours at it.

There's a very instructive narrative about the Polgar sisters, 3 Romanians whose parents actually married to study the effects of parental nurturing, and home schooled the girls with emphasis on chess studies from an early age. The father was a mediocre chess player, the mother clueless about chess. Two of the girls ended up Grand Masters and the third nearly- and Romanian heroes to boot. Their abilities took a back seat when they pursued marriage and family, but they apparently remained exceptional players.

[Robert Hooker]

From the age of six all I ever wanted to be was a musician...graced by God with a lot of "want to" but not much tallent I failed outright at piano have tried guitar for 30 yrs,found I was blessed with the knack and temperment of a soundman and made a pretty good living as one for a lot of years,then did OK on bass guitar.At 59 now I bought a pedal steel which I believe is a musician's greatest challenge.Two days after I got mine I fired up my studio and cut tracks for "Pass Me By",a favorite of mine with a simple cord progression.After two days of trying unsucessfully to put steel on it I spent the next four mos.watching vidieos,trying to comp licks and hours of noodleing.I finally felt confident enough to go back and lay down that track....I FOUND I WAS ACTUALLY WORSE!...brokenhearteed I called a buddy of mine who has been a gigging steel player(he says he's a guitar player that owns a steel)and asked him how long it took him to get a handle on steel...He said one night the guys in his band were at a party and somebody there had a Maverick for sale for $200 so they bought it for him...He says he played it on stage the next night and has used it every gig ever since...my point...Talent Matters