CMA awards

Greg Stasny · Post by **Greg Stasny** » 15 Nov 2011 7:18 am

Outstanding comments by Brint. I certainly think "manufactured" success in the music biz has occurred on a regular basis.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 15 Nov 2011 7:43 am

I think it works both ways. Sure, to some extent, people filter their desires in terms of what's available. But I really do think that the mainstream musical Lowest Common Denominator is pretty low and application of 'scientific' marketeering techniques has made it possible to very effectively target program material to specific demographic groups, based on their cultural biases. I'm sorry, but for people who market music, it's product, not music. And don't even begin to tell me that music wasn't 'marketed' back in the 'golden era'. I think success is a mix of talent, marketing, 'manufacturing', and just plain luck. It was just a different time and cultural backdrop.

For most non-musicians I've known over a period of decades, music is a background to their lives. It's not about the music, it's about the culture in which they live. They make cultural choices, and gravitate to music that fits. The current culture sure isn't about what most heartfelt old country (or old blues, for that matter) was about.

Here's an example. Martina McBride and Patty Loveless have each made a great traditional country record in the last several years. I don't think either of them had really strong commercial success, regardless of how great they were. If the mainstream country world was truly pining for some 'authentic' classic country, I think they would have beat a door to these records en masse.

I really think all this complaining is pointless.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 15 Nov 2011 9:23 am

All complaining is pointless, except for the affiliative effect of communicating shared experience. Are you in the habit of instructing people who complain about a lot of snow "You can't change the weather"?

Dave Mudgett wrote:I'm sorry, but for people who market music, it's product, not music. And don't even begin to tell me that music wasn't 'marketed' back in the 'golden era'. I think success is a mix of talent, marketing, 'manufacturing', and just plain luck. It was just a different time and cultural backdrop.

Do you not think that marketing is more dominant in that "mix" nowadays than in most of the history of culture previously?

For example, in the mid-60's the Verve label signed the Mothers ("of Invention" in the record company's "sanitized" version) and put out a double album. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that was purely because some guy at Verve thought "Doggone it, these guys are making creative music that deserves the chance to be heard." No doubt the Mothers were packing them in to the venues they were playing in L.A., which made the suits think there might be some commercial potential. But wasn't it a bit of a gamble to offer a double album to the national public, the vast majority of whom couldn't have imagined anything like what the Mothers were doing in their wildest dreams? Would record execs of today who base their decisions on their lowest-common-denominator-based marketing methods--"We know people will buy this because it's just like such-and-such which sold x number of units with such-and-such demographic"--make that decision today?

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 15 Nov 2011 9:59 am

It is marketing and sales nothing new there.
The more traditional country artist aren't selling like the others.
Therefore, they aren't nominated for award shows and don't get the same amount of air time. It is frustrating! I buy CD's and support those I like nothing new there.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 15 Nov 2011 10:38 am

Sorry, Brint, but if a group of people I hung around with bitched about the weather as bitterly and often as people here bitch about the state of country music, I might well periodically remind them that it's fruitless and that their time would be better spent either moving or learning to deal with it. This kind of constant denunciation and tilting at windmills really does drag things down pretty badly.

All complaining is pointless, except for the affiliative effect of communicating shared experience.

What new 'shared experience'? If there was something new to say, great. But when was the last time you heard anything new about this kind of thing? It's just a constant drone about the same old same old.

Do you not think that marketing is more dominant in that "mix" nowadays than in most of the history of culture previously?

I think marketing has always dominated the mix of messages. What has changed is the medium - it's way mo' better, mo' faster, and mo' mo' - and the message really is the medium, for most people at least. My opinion.

Would record execs of today who base their decisions on their scientific marketing methods--"We know people will buy this because it's just like such-and-such which sold x number of units with such-and-such demographic"--make that decision today?

Not a chance, and I don't think the 'mainstream suits' back then would have pushed mainstream-marginal stuff like the Mothers back then if they had the technical tools they have now. But how do the Mothers have anything to do with this? You can't be seriously arguing that the way this kind of fringe stuff was marketed was anything like the way traditional Nashville fare was marketed, are you?

Another critical point - relative to real mainstream music, most hardcore country music was barely a blip on the mainstream music radar. In my opinion, as soon as it started to garner mainstream crossover attention, it got heavily diluted. There were a few valiant attempts to get back to the glory days - e.g., the new traditionalists of the 80s and early 90s). But you can't fight the continual onslaught of mainstream cultural changes. It's like trying to push water upstream.

IMO, the best way to fight this is to just do what you do and damn the torpedoes. This type of complaining is more than wasted energy - it's actually negative energy that tends to eat alive what's left of the community. If it led to anything positive, I'd shut up. But I just don't see it that way.

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 15 Nov 2011 12:52 pm

Hello Gary Preston.Your question was. Do you play steel or sing country? I said! I do all three.Now you're saying.I don't know what L J said? I'm saying the road map of Country Music crap is for all from the old like me and we are taking it back. I guess you don't fit in the space Gary.For me,if it wasn't for the new crap as old crap couldn't bring out what the young artist are doing from our music. History.I think I'm going to get back on my Steel Guitar and see what I can do with the other two.

Leo J.Eiffert,Jr.& his CRAWFISH BAND with some PIGEONS. PS: I hope you understand me now Gary,if not,it's Okay.Just keep it country with some steel in your rock music.

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 16 Nov 2011 12:49 pm

L.J. i did understand that you said you sang and played country music ,but it is some of the other stuff you said that has confused me ! $:\$

It gets back to what i said it's all about the money that the record label and producers are making . Another horrible thought is that ''REAL'' Country music is pretty much gone and is a thing of the past . But lets be real everyone doesn't have to buy into it , so it's up the general public if they want to buy this ''whatever '' you want call it music . This being said i will play and listen to some of the older music from the '' STONE AGE '' if you will !

$:\$

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 16 Nov 2011 2:11 pm

LJ Eiffert wrote:Hello Gary Preston.Your question was. Do you play steel or sing country? I said! I do all three.Now you're saying.I don't know what L J said? I'm saying the road map of Country Music crap is for all from the old like me and we are taking it back. I guess you don't fit in the space Gary.For me,if it wasn't for the new crap as old crap couldn't bring out what the young artist are doing from our music. History.I think I'm going to get back on my Steel Guitar and see what I can do with the other two. Leo J.Eiffert,Jr.& his CRAWFISH BAND with some PIGEONS. PS: I hope you understand me now Gary,if not,it's Okay.Just keep it country with some steel in your rock music.

Don't you mean what the new artist are doing to music?
Sorry. Coulden't resist.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 16 Nov 2011 2:29 pm

Squeeky wheel gets the grease.

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 16 Nov 2011 3:03 pm

Somebody needs to submit this thread to National Geographic Magazine. This is some great Americana debatin goin on here. Love it.

Just leave 'em alone and it'll run its course. Who knows, maybe the absence of real country will one day spawn a new reality show where they'll be looking for country music like they're lookin for UFO's, Sasquatch and ghosts, and we'll all of a sudden turn all colors of relevant again. lol

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 16 Nov 2011 5:39 pm

I'm sorry for all the confusion.It seems all my life as a Professional Amateur musician with so much music under my belt,I'd better get me a career selling donuts.The spider web of Country Music today is everything in one jam of notes and beats. I respect the young for what they are doing to our Country Music.We just have to rebuild it again.Everybody on this forum and the world knows what wrong with Country Music.I'm just thankful I've been able to make a living out of it once. I'm back at it because I never left it in the first place.Gary you got it right with the money.Tracy got it right with the correction of my adjusted.Life is fun if you don't let all the crap get to you.

I did a crap thing.

Leo J.Eiffert,Jr.& his CRAWFISH BAND with some PIGEONS................

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 16 Nov 2011 7:01 pm

You know what folks ??? Regardless of what all us older steel players and hard core '' Classic Country ''lovers think about the '' new country '' they are the ones running around in nice tour buses and living life and enjoying it . Maybe we are all off course here !! What was i talking about anyway ???

$:\$

G.P.

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 17 Nov 2011 8:33 am

It'll be OK !

Catch Jimmy Kimmel tonight!

LJ Eiffert · Post by **LJ Eiffert** » 17 Nov 2011 3:32 pm

Catch the Bakersfield Sound in Nashville soon at the New Museum.You won't hear anything about Jay Dee Maness,Al Bruno,Tony & Larry Booth,Jack Tucker,Billy G.Smith,Gene Davis,Leon Copass,Bill Garner,Bill Woods nor little old me.

Maybe.Leo J.Eiffert,Jr. & his Bakersfield CRAWFISH BAND.

Jason Hull · Post by **Jason Hull** » 18 Nov 2011 2:57 am

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 18 Nov 2011 6:00 am

Theresa said (quote)
It is marketing and sales nothing new there.
The more traditional country artist aren't selling like the others.
Therefore, they aren't nominated for award shows and don't get the same amount of air time. It is frustrating! I buy CD's and support those I like nothing new there.

Could the reason they are not selling be they are not being marketed?..Two headed sword here methinks..You can't sell what isn't availible..

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 18 Nov 2011 6:44 am

Genres have to progress (albeit sometimes negatively) in order to remain relevant to the general public (sheep), as frustrating as that seems for fans of fiddle/steel swinging' honk. If you're playing classic country, you're a revivalist or traditionalist, which is totally fine...but don't expect it to take over the country charts like Les Paul Rock or Beach Bum Folk!

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 19 Nov 2011 4:07 pm

The more traditional I'm talking about is Easton Corbin, Billy Currington, Alan Jackson etc.
If you don't listen maybe it's why it's not selling .

George Crickmore · Post by **George Crickmore** » 19 Nov 2011 4:58 pm

Theresa Galbraith wrote:The more traditional I'm talking about is Easton Corbin, Billy Currington, Alan Jackson etc.
If you don't listen maybe it's why it's not selling .

Billy Currington is about as far from traditional country as you can get. He has some decent stuff but traditional its not.

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 19 Nov 2011 7:14 pm

It's subjective.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 19 Nov 2011 10:21 pm

Nothing [subjective] about it. I've been around awhile [too long] The only artist I've heard that is country in a loooong time is Dale Watson, The greatest country singer we have today, Some here that think all these rock and rollers are country will say they don't like Dale,Sounds like that braindead record exe that told Mr. Cash [you are too country for country] YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 19 Nov 2011 11:14 pm

When I started on steel guitar in the 70's I had to play stuff like "The Happiest Girl in the Whole USA" and "Knock 3 Times", and, looking back, that music sucked just as bad as top 40 country music today. So, when you consider it in that light, it's not really any worse now. Hell, I still get to play the good stuff by Faron, Jones, Price, Wills, et al., so I'm still having fun.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 20 Nov 2011 7:58 am

Everything about art is subjective. There is no universal metric to evaluate "What is country music?" except someone's personal taste. BTW, it is possible to like some more modern country like Billy Currington and Alan Jackson, and still like Dale Watson. If you don't call people like this country, what would you call them? It sure as hell isn't rock, blues, jazz, hip-hop, soul, funk, or anything else I can think of. IMO, only people that are really into country music can discern any significant difference between any of them.

Cal is also correct - there has always been stuff I don't like in any style of music, and that probably goes for any living sentient being. I used to get repulsed in the 70s when disco creeped its way into just about every style, including rock, blues, jazz, and country. Someone else liked it, no point in bitching about it - just move on and do what you want.

Personally, I play what I like, and that means "the good stuff", whatever that phrase means to me. OK, it means I work in a different area (not music) to pay the bills. That's a more than fair trade-off to me.

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 21 Nov 2011 8:07 am

All right, let's face it: today's country artists, music, business, mindset, priority, outlook, , background, etc. are as country as the Kennedy's.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 21 Nov 2011 8:46 am

I came to country music late, after i had listened to and played a big variety of styles (except Jazz and World Music). When I started with the steel, my record collection went up from maybe ten to maybe fifty albums of traditional country, because I wanted to learn more about the genre. I learned to appreciate people like Wynn Stewart, Convay, Merle and many more.
But as I said I've listened to Rock music in general for fourty- five years so I developped a taste, at least for me, to say what is good or bad.
Let me give an example: "safe A Horse Ride A Cowboy" is no good music in my opinion. Call it country or call it rock. It's just bad music in my opinion.
I have no acces to the TV shows you have over there, so I don't exactly know what the new artists play.
I just wanted to give a general opinion.

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