Solenoid powered pedal steel

[Mark D Carter]

Hey guys! I don't post that often because I find that if I read more the questions have been asked. Anyway, on with the thought:

I am paralyzed and in a wheelchair. I currently play the lap steel (Peavey Powerslide) which I am not impressed with, but I love the sound of a pedal steel. I know that without the use of my legs or knees a pedal steel is a waste of money for me and I should stick with a lap steel. Well, I like to improve or innovate when someone tells me I can't do something.

I had the idea the other day looking at the classifieds that I could do away with the pedals and knee bars and install electric solenoids on them instead. I know where I can get the parts and have the ability to figure out the electronics. My problem is I don't have a steel (that I am aware of) in the area to look at and find out how much pull force or stroke I need.

I am going to be tackling this project in the next 2 months after I purchase a pedal steel. I will probably get a Carter Starter or a student model of some kind as I don't want to hack up a nice steel.

I would appreciate any thoughts you guys might have on this and if anyone knows the stroke distance on the pedals and knee levers. Thanks guys!!

Mark

[Eugene Cole]

I am paralyzed and in a wheelchair.... Well, I like to improve or innovate when someone tells me I can't do something.

I had the idea the other day looking at the classifieds that I could do away with the pedals and knee bars and install electric solenoids on them instead. I know where I can get the parts and have the ability to figure out the electronics. My problem is I don't have a steel (that I am aware of) in the area to look at and find out how much pull force or stroke I need.

I am going to be tackling this project in the next 2 months after I purchase a pedal steel. I will probably get a Carter Starter or a student model of some kind as I don't want to hack up a nice steel.

I would appreciate any thoughts you guys might have.... Thanks guys!!

Mark

OK; a few thoughts in no particular order.

Solenoids may be prone to generating electrical noise which will get in to the pickup or other parts of the signal chain.

The subtlety of the speed of the combination of pedals and knee levers is part of the PSG's sonic nuances. You may want to ultimately have a means of slowing the activation of the solenoids to enhance subtlety and reduce mechanical noise.

Some builders have already experimented with a wrist lever. I have no personal experience with a wrist lever.

If you can find a local machinist (perhaps through the Forum) that has a clue about PSG playing; that should help tremendously.

You have a great idea which I look forward seeing realized.

[Lee Baucum]

GFI has produced some custom steel guitars. Take a look at the guitars featured on this page for some ideas for wrist levers.

Click Here

[Gregg Laiben]

I can't offer any insight on how the solenoids would work with knee levers or foot pedals, but if you need a volume (expression) pedal, the Telonics is designed with an optional remote sensor. Dave Beatty, the designer, is a great guy and hangs around these parts and may chime in.

[Lane Gray]

I think the binary nature of a solenoid renders it unsuitable for the job. Its cousin, the voice coil, would probably do well in that job. I know they used to use them to position heads on computer discs.
Stepper motors could also do the job.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I don't think yous want a voice coil fighting that tension. A stepper motor or servo (Tom Servo? I miss that show) would do better.

Going just from memory of what I have read on string packets, most strings of a pedal steel carry 22-25 pounds of tension, and a pedal/knee usually adding less than 5 more. Some strings probably venture into the upper thirties.

[Ben Godard]

What you are talking about sounds nice in theory but in a real world scenario it would be a heck of a task. I'll explain.

First off,Selenoids will not work. they are a two state device. Retract or extend. Theres no control of the actuation speed or any of the expressive dynamics the make the pedal steel what it is.

The only way to achieve a somewhat real pedal steel sound is to have servos to control the pedals. I can actually envision some kind of electronic pedal setup with each pedal having a MPG (manual pulse generaor)which controls a motor for each pedal rod.

Nonetheless, a set up like this would be quite an elaborate setup but I would bet it could be done. I bet the Japanese have done it. They made a humanoid robot to play a violin (which of course is servo controlled).

One thing to keep in mind, is that you would need a pedal steel with really hard stops. Cause pedal pressure can change the tone even when its against a stop unless the stops are rock solid.

i have a decent background in mechanics and electronics as I have been working on and repair CNC machines for quite some time. Its what I do for a living. So stuff like this interest me.

[Mark D Carter]

Wow, great input guys. I didn't think about the mechanics of a solenoid I guess. So thinking about servos to run the levers/pedals is an interesting thought. There are small servos available for robot/radio controls that have 20-40 lbs torque. As well there are programable controllers available to run the servos that can have the end points tuned to be able to control them. Looks like time to do more research.

Thanks for the input guys. Feel free to keep the thread going. I will look into the wrist controls too.

Ben, I may PM you to pick your brain in the near future.

[Russ Wever]

I will probably get a Carter Starter or a student model
of some kind as I don't want to hack up a nice steel.

Mark,
I have a used carter starter that has a slight cosmetic
'ding' on the front, but otherwise is fully functional, that
I have been intending to put up for sale.
In addition, I will be making a trip to your area in the
near future and can arrange to deliver it to you.
~Russ

[Jerry Overstreet]

Second Gregg's suggestion. Dave Beatty was the first thing I thought of when I read your post.

On the subject of solenoids, in the automotive industry, these things have been in use to control idle speeds for several years. They have what amounts to a threaded pintle that drives in and out, in variable amounts, to raise or lower mechanical linkage that operates the throttle valve.

They are controlled by the vehicles' processor of course and require a sensor to send data back and forth to the computer.

Pretty basic stuff and relatively inexpensive.
This is relatively old technology, so I'm quite sure much more efficient systems would be available now.

Perhaps something of this nature in smaller modules could be used to actuate the pull rods etc. Maybe use these motors to work with multiple changes.

I don't know that actual pedals and levers would be needed.

Maybe do a search here on the subject. I seem to recall reading discussion on such an idea previously.

[Russ Wever]

Check out previous
discussions ~> HERE.
~Rus

[Danny Bates]

Mark, before you go to a pedal steel, you may want to consider a Bigsby Palm Pedal mounted on an electric guitar. With a nut riser, it's close to a lap steel. I played a lot of gigs with one.

There are some other palm and strap operated devices out now and I bet you could easily figure out a way to do a lot of twangin', have a blast and save some bucks too!

[Dave Hopping]

Forumite Mike Perlowin has talked about a wrist lever that he uses on his PSG.Maybe he'll see this thread and chime in.

[Mark D Carter]

After reading the thread that Russ put up, I am not convinced on how much farther I want to pursue the entire process of using robotics (servos/solenoids) to play a pedal steel. It seems to me that I prefer the more traditional sounds of the instrument. Its not my intent to let a computer decide what sounds I get out of a PSG.....

I did look at GFI's website that Lee pointed me to. A custom PSG may still be out of my price range for now, but it is definately floating around in my mind.

I will get with you Russ on that Carter, I am interested in it. I am still a few weeks out on it if your not in a big hurry.

Thanks guys for all the input!

[Mike Perlowin]

I already saw the thread, and was going to mention GFI but Lee had already done so.

Mark, I think a custom made GFI with 4 wrist levers like the one in the pictures referred to on Lee's post is the answer.

[Lane Gray]

If you're only gonna have four, I like b0b's idea, in that other thread, of servo-driven rather than direct mechanical. That way you could readdress the four changes depending on the song/mood.

[Dick Sexton]

I remember seeing a picture of a steel with four levers operated by the right hand rist. Any two levers could be used in combination. Add half stops, that would make 8 changes. Would have to learn it, but that seems like a possible answer using existing gear/available parts mostly. An idea.

I've always thought you could adapt a Proportional 10 channel RC Transmitter/Receiver/Servo System. They are flying some pretty big planes with these things now. Probably be expensive though, maybe have some drawback too.

[Dave Beaty]

Hi Mark,
Marvin Born has specific information regarding a young man with similar, if not the same requirements who is now playing pedal steel. I have sent word to Marvin; he should be getting in on the topic soon. Rest assured that everyone will help all we can to get you playing pedals.
All the best!
Dave

[Marvin Born]

Mark,

http://www.gfimusicalproducts.com/Image ... 20ISGC.htm

At the 2010 St. Louis convention , Kurt Kowalski (see link above) played in the Gospel show using a specially built GFI that allowed him to play pedal steel. GFI has a section in their site describing their specially designed and built guitars. You don't have to reinvent the "wheel," Telonics and GFI has already done that.

Additional Kurt borrowed my Telonics pedal and rack system for the show. At that time it was a test system; now all components are in production.

I have a "tilt" sensor (the same as in the pedal) that attaches to a ball cap that controls the volume by tilting you head up or down. Kurt had his "hat" set up for head down for low volume and has he tilted his head up the volume increased.

If you examine the pictures, you can see the guitar with hand levers around the right wrist and in another shot you can see the sensor and the connecting cable mounted on the hat. You can see the Telonics Pedal sitting on the floor behind the rack. This pedal was active and connected to the sensor and the Telonics rack.

Mr. Kowalski received his GFI at the show and played a rehearsal at noon and then played the show at 3 PM. He adapted to the hat very quickly.

The Telonics pedal would solve any volume pedal needs very quickly with off the shelf components. The pedal/sensor is stand alone and will work with any guitar and amplifier you choose.


Dave just e-mailed me and said that once you get a steel guitar up and running, Telonics will arrange to provide a sensor system for you.


Marvin Born

[Ed Alves]

Hi Mark,

The Pomona 6 Lapsteel guitar by Duesenberg might be of interest to you. It would give you at least some, if not all of sounds and tone that you are looking for.

http://www.duesenbergusa.com/guitars/pomona6/index.html

[Jim Simon]

Perhaps hydraulic cylinders would over come the problems with electric servos. Should handle the pull pressures and would be proportional. Could use a remote pump/resevoir. Joy stick control gate.

[Bill Dobkins]

I have worked with solinoids for years trying to make a B bender. I never found one with enough power to pull the string without a reducer of some kind. To get one with the power was to big. I'm sure it could be done but is it fesible.
If you could use knee levers and palm levers that would be the answer. Talk to Kyle at MSA he can help you.