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Topic: Why so much power for pedal steel E9? |
Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2011 4:10 pm |
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Why do pedal steel guitars set up with E9 tuning require such high power amplification? I often read on the forum that a particular amp is not suitable for PS E9 because it is under powered. I play non-pedal C6 and often get by with fairly low wattage amps such as a Fender Blues Jr., even when playing with drums. Is there a technique to using a high power amp that I should know about that would improve my sound? My guitars are either 6,7 or 8 stringers with single coil pickups. I use a volume pedal and play mostly Western Swing, Country and Hawaiian styles.
Thank you,
Gary Meixner |
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Cliff Kane
From:
the late great golden state
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Posted 12 Oct 2011 5:03 pm
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| It's about clean headroom. I like my Fender Twin because it has enough headroom to play clean at a loud volume, but the tubes will get gritty if I dig in and push it. The standard approach seems to be to use solid state combo or power amps with 250+ watts for the clean E9 tone that is so common and popular, but many players use smaller amps. An amp like that can be overkill, and might not work as well as lower powered tube amp for lap steel, traditional non-pedal styles, etc. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 12 Oct 2011 6:39 pm
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| I read once(don't remember where-GP maybe?)that sliding into,out of,and between notes and chords hits an amp pretty hard,so there's a lot of headroom needed to avoid distortion. |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 12 Oct 2011 7:55 pm
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It's personal preferance,IMHO. I get all the clean headroom I need from my Little Walter 50 watt amp. If I need to be extremely loud and clean I'll get some help from my Furlong powered cab.
If you are using a solid state amp, then the answer is simple, you use as powerful amp as you can afford and carry, because you don't want any distortion from the amp. Tube amps are the opposite, you use as small an amp as you can get away with. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 12 Oct 2011 9:40 pm
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for me its not just about clean headroom - its about a giant reserve of power for sustain and for when you are playing lower notes with higher notes on top. An underpowered amp - especially a tube amp - will compress when the big transients come through. Thats great for guitar and lap steel, but for E9 pedal it can get annoying, because you are focusing so much on the dynamics of the instrument with the volume pedal. You don't want the amp to fight back and negate what you are doing with your right foot.
That said, in my opinion if an amp is too clean and has too much headroom, it can sound pretty sterile. I like just a teeny tiny perfect little amount of tube compression and just a teensy bit of harmonic distortion, because it sounds very musical and interesting to the ear. If you can find an amp that has that magic combo of subtle compression and saturation, and is loud enough for what you are doing, you can ignore the wattage for the most part.
And yes - the amp does really interact with the way you play. When I use a solid state amp, I find that I really compensate with the volume pedal compared to when I use a Twin or my Steel Amp. It only takes a little bit of time to adjust when switching between amp designs, but it does make a difference and it does need to be done.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 5:09 am Re: Why so much power for pedal steel E9?
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| Gary Meixner wrote: |
Why do pedal steel guitars set up with E9 tuning require such high power amplification?
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LOUD DRUMMERS ! ! !
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 6:11 am
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| Jay Ganz has it nailed. I currently use both my 85 watt Dual Showman head and my Nashville 400 to keep up when micing the Dual Showman isn't an option. |
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Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 7:37 am
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Compact 1 X 15 cabinet with 2 lb. 800 watt RMS Class T power amp/SMPS module mounted inside.
Total weight = 25 lbs.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 8:00 am
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I honestly don't know. I use a 40 watt tube amp for all of my gigs now. It's plenty for small and mid-sized rooms, and nowadays they always mike amps at big venues. I think a lot of guys are just hauling around big amps from the 70's because they still work and they sound great.
If I were to go solid state today, I'd probably use a Peavey Nashville 112. Same great sound as the old amps, but lighter and more suitable for the modern stage.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 9:13 am
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1) Pedal steel guitar presents a wide frequency response and a very complex waveform, particularly when moving multiple-note figures, clean headroom is required to reproduce these sounds clearly.
2) To bank sustain most pedal steel players strike the strings with the volume pedal maybe only half-open, the remaing available power allows for increasing the volume at the pedal to maintain a constant volume as the strings decay.
3) The bass guitarist on one side of you is amplifying one note at a time with 200 watts or more. The guitarist on the other side of you has only 35 watts for his several notes at a time but it's a cranked-up full-on saturated 35 watts and one half of that is pure distortion at any given moment. Each one of the drums and cymbals have a greater radiating surface than most amps and most drummers do not tap them gently.
So there you have it... |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 10:36 am
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I think Tim Marcus hinted at it here:
| Quote: |
| for when you are playing lower notes with higher notes on top. |
Bass notes take up a whole lot more power to reproduce cleanly than treble notes, and when you play the two together, an under-powered amp won't reproduce both notes, it'll do some kind of oddball additive squawk. It's not just about power, it's also the frequency range of the preamp design. If a jazz guitarist isn't using a Twin Reverb, he's using a special SS amp instead. |
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David Higginbotham
From:
Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 11:23 am
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| Quote: |
| LOUD DRUMMERS ! ! ! |
LOUD BASS PLAYERS SHOULD ALSO BE INCLUDED |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 12:28 pm
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...BTW excellent amp, Jay!
Did you use the original pre? |
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James Cann
From:
Phoenix, AZ
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Posted 17 Oct 2011 9:22 pm
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Roland Cube 60, recently bought; previously a 65W Sunn 112PR. I've never had an amp of bigger wattage, and no one ever said they couldn't hear me. I guess if anyone makes an issue of power, well, which PA channel shall I use?
Very pleased with the Roland, thank you. |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 17 Oct 2011 10:00 pm
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| I thought the need for 15" speakers and high power was to accomodate C6th players needing lots of low end. E9th shouldn't need more than a NV112, really? |
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Steve Schmidt
From:
Ramsey, MN, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2011 3:42 am
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| Jay has nailed it with the loud drummers. Jay, care to share what that neat little amp is inside your cabinet? How's it sound? |
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2011 7:56 am
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 I feel that power relates to a more ''solid sound '' and more body . For example at the last jam i played i used one of my Nashville 400 amps with a Rick Johnson split cabinet . I sat beside a player with two Nashville 112's and i was told i had a fuller sound with more body to it . We were kicking hard . Just my opinion and not in concrete !  |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 18 Oct 2011 9:44 am
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| ...and if you're playing with folks who don't leave any space in the music for the steel to be heard in it doesn't matter how big your amp is... |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 3:22 am
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It is similar to a P.A. system.
Sure you can play a gig with a 100 watt P.A, but a 1000 watt P.A. will sound better.
I use a low wattage amp much of the time because it is clean and clear sounding (Fox 4-10 Bassman amp)
Most other units require more power to sound clear.
My rack is a Rev Pre with Stewart world 1.2.
Its not that is louder altho it could be.
Not many amps can get much louder that a Fender Twin but some can sound better at high volumes.
I am also not a fan of loud drummers / Bass players.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 5:16 am
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| Steve Schmidt wrote: |
| Jay, care to share what that neat little amp is inside your cabinet? How's it sound? |
As I mentioned before, it's a combination Class T audio amp and SMPS (switch mode power supply) all in one module.
I've tried many Class D amps (both modules and rack mounted) over the years but the Class T sounds way better to me.
For you tech guys:
A Class T amplifier is an audio amplifier IC design. Rather than being a separate "class" of amplifier, Class T is a registered trademark for Tripath's amplifier technologies.
It is an implementation of Class D amplifiers, but is claimed to improve the control scheme to create more efficient and higher quality audio amplification.
One of the amplifiers, the TA2020, was named one of the twenty-five chips that 'shook the world" by the IEEE Spectrum magazine.
The control signals in Class T amplifiers may be computed using digital signal processing or fully analog techniques.
Currently available implementations use a loop similar to a higher order Delta-Sigma (ΔΣ) (or sigma-delta) modulator, with an internal digital clock to control the sampled comparator.
The two key aspects of this topology are that (1), feedback is taken directly from the switching node rather than the filtered output, and (2), the higher order
loop provides much higher loop gain at high audio frequencies than would be possible in a conventional single pole amplifier.
That sorta "splains" it, right? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 8:22 am
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David M said
"Bass notes take up a whole lot more power to reproduce cleanly"
Transformers also enter into the equation. I got a Peavey Delta Blues, with a 15, to use as my Baritone guitar amp. It just couldn't handle those low, low notes! Looked at the PT, and it was tiny! Right for Peavey's concept for the amp, but wrong for me. Put in a big, ole hunk of Hammond iron, and a Dr Z OT. What a difference! It even sounded great when recording pedal steel for Neil Zaza and others. And I could play fairly loudly. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 8:51 am
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| Yes b0b. Just adding a bit to David Mason's comment. I also mentioned that I used that 30 watt(?) amp for recording pedal steel, and it sounded great! |
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Jerry Meek
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2011 2:44 pm Amp power
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| I agree with BOB Over the years I've had Twins Standel' Sho Bud ' Session 400s' Nashville 400s.Vegas400 'Evans and played thru others.I hate to let this out but lately I bought a Hot rod Deluxe and found my Zum. with a RV7 hardwire behind a Boss DD2 has great tone with a stock speaker and even better with an extended K130 JBL.It seems to me when you add too much volume you lose tone.that is why miking is better. IMHP |
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Gary Preston
From:
Columbus, Ohio, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2011 9:46 am
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| Jerry tone isn't a problem with my Nashville 400's . I get lots of compliments about the tone of my system . I use one Nashville 400 in a Rick Johnson Split cabinet with a Lexicon MPX 100 processor . It rocks as they say . G.P. |
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