| Author |
Topic: Possible to get proper pitch for any 3 notes at any fret? |
Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 7:45 am |
|
As a newbie I am curious. Got a StroboFlip. Its great. I am using the Emmons E9th setting. Curious, I had the bar at fret 6 and the tuner connected. I played the chord containing strings 4(A),5(F#) & 6(D). Then I played each note individually. I was trying to verify I had the bar precisely on the fret. I discovered only "D" to be in tune at this fret. "A" was slightly sharp and "F#" was slightly flat. I then tried holding the bar at an angle that would result in all 3 notes in tune simultaneously. I ended up giving up. Amazing what a precision instrument like the StroboFlip can show. My question is:
Is this typical or is this an anomaly that is unique to my guitar? Hans
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
|
|
|
Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 9:24 am
|
|
| I do not believe this is unique to your guitar. If you feel like it try this: Tune accurately open and then play each string at the 12th fret and record your results for us. Should be somewhat interesting. Remember to try and use about the same amount of bar pressure you would use while playing. |
|
|
|
Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 10:00 am
|
|
Gary checked out the site you list. Like the demo song "World on a String." Has nothing further happened since 2009? Will supply a recording of what you propose ASAP. Work calls at this moment. Hans
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
|
|
|
Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 10:16 am
|
|
| Thanks Hans. Our CD is here and we are in the process of making it available online. I will post when its done. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 12:01 pm
|
|
Hans, did you tune by ear, by harmonics, or with a tuner?
You described the results of a Just Intonation chord when analyzed by an Even Temperament tuner.
A natural major chord (tuned by ear or harmonics to zero beat) will have slightly sharpened fifths and flatted thirds.
Some, indeed many, steel players sharpen their V, flat their III and IV because we CAN and the chords sound "sweeter".
Many went back to Even Temperament after realizing that JI steel meant competing values on the stage for every note.
Kindly don your asbestos suit, as this topic is hotter than push-pull v. all-pull or solid state v. tube.
EDIT: By hotter, I mean fraught with inflamed passions. Because the JI folks can't admit that they're technically correct, but JI chords stick out like a sore thumb. Bach sharped our thirds centuries ago for a reason. Even if they DO sound funny that way. <puts away his hornet-nest stirring stick and walks away whistling> |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 12:32 pm
|
|
PS: You'd find the same anomaly if you used harmonics to tune a regular guitar. Only the E strings would be right.
Ummm, fret 6? |
|
|
|
Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 3:08 pm Re: Possible to get proper pitch for any 3 notes at any fret
|
|
| Hans Penner wrote: |
| ...Is this typical or is this an anomaly that is unique to my guitar? |
I think it is fairly typical, especially since many tune the 3rd and 6th flat of ET using a preset similar to Newmans, or a custom variation of their own.
Clete |
|
|
|
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 4:13 pm
|
|
Try practicing a song by playing a chord and let it ring for 4 counts and the hit it again and sustain for 4 counts.
Do this with a song or a droning note until it sounds in tune.
Try it with scales or licks.
It can be done and it is easier if your not staring at the tuner. 
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
|
|
|
Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 4:17 pm
|
|
Lane, I tune using a StroboFlip. It was set to the Emmons E9th tuning. I am BRAND NEW to music so virtually everything needs a beginners explanation so I can comprehend. For instance, tuning a guitar using harmonics is out of the question. What then is a JI chord? I have now switched to the Jeff Newman E9th sweetened tuning (http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php). I figure if Bach sharpened then I would follow suit. After all, he pretty much created our system of music, I believe. As for stirring the hornets nest, I am repeatedly amazed by the divergence of opinions any of my questions have resulted in. It sure can leave a NEWBIE like me wondering, "Is there even an answer?" Hans
Oh, fret 6? Just happened to be where my bar was when I decided to see if I was right on the fret.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 4:52 pm
|
|
First off. fret 6 would give you the following notes (assuming no pedals or knee levers are being activated):
4 = A# (Bb)
5 = F
6 = D
Could this be why the F# was flat (supposed to be an F) and the A was sharp (Supposed to be an A#). I suspect your tuner was picking up close to the correct note and your guitar was not in tune.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 5:00 pm
|
|
Hans, if you selected a mode instead of straight chromatic, then the pitches will be adjusted. Presumably less in the Emmons, because he eventually urged going back to Bach. So your results are exactly what's called for.
Hans, below is just background and history
Due to fluctuations in bar pressure, et c., and your being new to music, we're quibbling over less than ten hundredths of a fret.
Now some background in brief: before Bach, keyboards and other instruments with discrete notes would only be EXACTLY in tune in two keys; the tonic and the relative minor, say E and C#m.
Every interval was mathematically pure, but if you tried to use an E piano in G, it'd sound like hell. This is because o of the mathematical nature of sound and us forcing 11 half steps to the octave. This was Just Intonation. The chords DO sound prettier.
Bach got weary of these conflicting scales, and devised a system in which every interval was slightly out so none would be horribly out most notably, the major third moved to about 7 cents north of true and the fifth about five cents flat. This he called Even Temperament.
Then along comes the pedal steel with its flexibility. And many decided to pursue a sweetened tuning. Some went whole hog, and others just flattened the thirds. Although without "tuning compensators" (never mind, please. I said "in brief"), the C# major chord of A pedal and F lever sounds like a train wreck: the C# in an A major chord is NOT a perfect Fifth from the G# in an E major chord.
If you don't play with anyone else, then JI will sound better. If you're gonna play with others, there's arguments in favor of both sweet chords and of avoiding different values for Bb, to choose a note.
I personally tune to ET, then take my thirds just a touch flat but not all the way to JI
I'd recommend using a straight chromatic mode for your tuner. But I'm biased in favor of ET. Some think I'm a heretic.
If you use the other modes, it doesn't quite matter, but you should know that you're not QUITE on the same notes.
Make sense?
Last edited by Lane Gray on 22 Oct 2011 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 5:42 pm
|
|
hans..i'd take what everyone says into consideration, however, tuning these things is always a compromise of sorts, so getting it close and making it sound good to your ear is most important.
getting a digital tuner to read out perfectly on multiple strings at a barred fret will always be difficult.
the process of playing incorporates somewhat of an organic property that doesn't quite register with the digital realm. |
|
|
|
Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 6:55 pm
|
|
Paul Brainard told me his method that works pretty well as a compromise - especially easy with a TU-2 LED tuner....
Tune everything straight up, except tune the G#'s 10 cents flat (one LED down). Then mash the A&B pedals and tune the A's to be the same amount flat as cabinet drop took the E (in my case 5 cents, two LED's lit up), so the IV chord sounds good....
Done, and really easy to touch up during the night... |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 7:14 pm
|
|
Steve, doesn't that sour A as dominant 7, with the B pedal and D lever, or does the cabinet drop pull the B and D# down too?
I ask seriously, but I did just notice that it serves as a "where does it end?" Illustration |
|
|
|
Stuart Legg
|
Posted 22 Oct 2011 8:23 pm
|
|
3 strings bared and all 3 in tune. Ain't gonna happen.
A Strobo Tuner is just a tuner not God so don't expect any miracles. |
|
|
|
CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 12:17 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| tuning a guitar using harmonics is out of the question |
" tuning by harmonics "
is'nt that how steelers did before tuners ?
the E9 tuning has 2 open chords : E & B
when you tune, you'll have to refer to both
(as well as A w: pedals A & B engaged)
& eventually F# minor chord
that makes 4 fundamentals that basically get tuned to 440 or 442 : E - B - A - F#
to which you can add the D on string 9
lever E lowers Es a half : strings 4 & 10
lever F raises Es a half : strings 4 & 10
lever G raises F#s a whole : strings 1 & 7
lever D lowers Eb a half : string 2 (& 9 option C#)
lever V lowers Bs a half : string 5 (& 10 option)
you will be using frets 5 - 7 - 12 - & 4 !
you can get a harmonic on the 4th fret -
certainly not as easy as on frets 5,7 & 12
look for it, it's there - not loud & clear but it's there
here we go :
push pedals A&B down first & tune the Es (strings 4 & 8 ) to 440 or 442 as your initial ref
release & then you're off
Open/no pedals for starters - pedals & levers will follow
using harmonics on each :
on left reference tone / on right string to tune
E : string 8 fret 5 / string 4 fret 12
B : string 10 fret 5 / string 5 fret 12
F# : string 5 fret 7 / String 1 fret 12 - string
F# : string 1 fret 12 / string 7 fret 5
G# : string 8 fret 4 ( yep 4) / string 6 fret 5
G# : string 4 ( yep 4 ) / string 3 fret 5
Eb : string 5 fret 4 / string 2 fret 5
E : string 8 w: A&B fret 5 / string 6 w: A&B fret 7
A : string 6 w: A&B fret 5 / string 3 w: A&B fret 12
A : string 6 w: A&B fret 12 / string 9 fret 7
C# : string 5 w: A&B fret 12 / string 10 w: A&B fret 5
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 4 w: B&C fret 7
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 5 w: B&C fret 5
Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 4 w lever E fret 12
Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 8 w: lever E fret 5
B(G# lever): string 5 fret 5 / string 7 w: lever G fret 4
G# : string 3 fret 12 / string 1 w: lever G fret 12
F : string 5 w: A&B fret 4 / string 4 w: lever F fret 5
F : string 4 w: lever F fret 12 / string 8 w: lever F fret 5
Bb : string 7 fret 4 / string 5 w: lever V fret 5
Bb : string 5 w: lever V fret 12 / string 10 w: lever V fret 5
D : string 9 fret 5 / string 2 w: lever D fret 12
a word to the wise : compromise is inevitable
---------------------------------------------------
when tuning strings 1(F#) - 2(Eb)- 7(F#) note that the root/reference is B ......NOT... E
F# being the fifth & Eb being the third of B :
the fifth of B gets the same treatment/value as the fifth of E
the third of B gets the same treatment/value as the third of E
last but not least (the plot sickens lol)
when tuning F# on string 4 w: pedal C : F# is the root tone since the ref is an F# minor chord
here again it will get it's own treatment/value
Last edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 23 Oct 2011 8:22 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 1:19 am
|
|
Lane-
You should ask Paul, I'm sure he's thought it through before settling on it, but I think you may be right about cabinet drop "fixing" the errors.....and I'd say (IMHO, I'm sure all of you have given more thought to this than I have...) that all the folks who tune exactly, not straight up, shouldn't ignore cabinet drop when they tune, but I don't quite know how you would do that for all of the permutations of levers and pedals.....the point of Paul's method is that it makes commonly used things sound good, and you can actually check your whole tuning in between songs.... |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 3:52 am
|
|
Learning to tune with harmonics by ear will make you a better player. Looking at a tuner is a big waste of time for the most part. Check a piano with your tuner. Its not perfect or "straight up" either. Western tonal systems are weird like that.
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 5:37 am
|
|
| Hans Penner wrote: |
| What then is a JI chord? |
A Just Intonated chord is a chord that sounds pure / in tune, no matter what tuning devices tell you.
Note that Just Intonation (JI) is not one specific tuning - it is a tuning-system/-method.
"JI Explained" here, but in short for our purpose: any 12 half-note / octave instruments that can be tuned to 16 exact pitches /octave can be JI tuned without noticeable compromises. The humble Pedal Steel Guitar isn't quite there yet - and we have body-drop that complicates tuning even further - so we have to compromise - sweeten our tunings - and tune so the individual PSG sounds right on its own and along with other instruments for as many chords as possible.
My advice is to not make it a priority to always place the bar exactly on top of the fret-marker - especially if you tune in accordance with one of the sweetened tunings, as that will make notes and whole chords sound wrong in too many places.
Instead "map" your steel's every chord on every fret-position and with any pedal/lever combination in your mind as you learn how to tune and play PSG, and learn to "micro-tune" by ear with the bar perfectly parallel with but not necessarily micrometer-accurately on top of the fret.
A few cents left or right of the fret, perfectly parallel with the fret(s) but with the down-force regulated slightly along the bar depending on which strings you're picking, will have almost the same effect on a PSG as slight variations in finger-pressure across the strings on a regular guitar to make it sound perfectly in tune - even if it isn't when you play "flat and accurate". In time such "micro-tuning" becomes part of your automatic reflexes, as it has for all experienced steelers with a good ear who always seem to make their instrument sound right.
Note that nobody really cares how you tune your PSG as long as it sounds perfectly in tune when you play - alone or with others, and it is of no use to blame the instrument or point to a "tuning device" if it doesn't sound right. So take your time and figure out what tuning/tuning-method that suits you and your instrument best, and learn how to play it in tune. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 6:19 am
|
|
Bob, if you're gonna head in a JI direction, I think it'd be easier in the long run to train your ear to "zero beat" your thirds, fourths, fifths and sixths as intervals, saving the time of striking the harmonics.
YMMV, of course. |
|
|
|
Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 8:06 am Thanx
|
|
Being new to forums and the etiquette thereof, I would just like to say thanx to all of you who have responded to by beginner's question. I feel I should respond to each of you in turn but then I'd be sitting at this computer too much instead of practicing, practicing, practicing. Know that I do try many of your suggestions and thanx again.
Hans
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
|
|
|
Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 9:14 am
|
|
This all depends on your definition of 'in tune'. My definition is 'sounds consonant with a band (who must also be in tune). This doesn't always mean that each note will be perfect to the tuner. (and THAT depends on your definition of 'perfect')
If it sounds good and sounds in tune, then it IS
Learn to recognize what in tune sounds like to you.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
|
|
|
Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 12:07 pm Re.
|
|
Hans if i took a guess it would be you may have been born with perfect pitch ear and are not aware of it. When i started in music back in the stone age it bothered me as nothing ever sounded in perfect tune which i learned later is impossible. If this is the case with you learn, to live with it.
I have posted this before but it was years before i found out i had been born with perfect pitch after taking a test on tones at the Ruben Van Fleet space and science center (SP ?) in San Diego,Ca. Tracy |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 1:02 pm
|
|
Tracy, we're ALL born with perfect pitch, our ears and brains are hardwired for it¹.
The question is what to do with all of that info. Basically, as long as you're within the deviations of ET (say 6 cents), I'd say you're close enough.
¹One of the more fascinating chapters in "This Is Your Brain On Music," an amazing book on how we perceive sounds and what makes some sounds music and what our brain does with them.
This Is Your Brain on Music. Read it. |
|
|
|
Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
|
Posted 23 Oct 2011 8:16 pm
|
|
| Lane Gray wrote: |
Tracy, we're ALL born with perfect pitch, our ears and brains are hardwired for it¹.
The question is what to do with all of that info. Basically, as long as you're within the deviations of ET (say 6 cents), I'd say you're close enough.
¹One of the more fascinating chapters in "This Is Your Brain On Music," an amazing book on how we perceive sounds and what makes some sounds music and what our brain does with them.
This Is Your Brain on Music. Read it. |
Lane not to argue but i don't believe you understand what having perfect pitch ear is. Try teaching some one fiddle (which i also learned at an early age) who does not have a good ear for music. Over the years when i was still playing i talked to many musicians who had perfect pitch and all ageed one has to learn to live with it. I always wondered back then why every thing sounded a little out of tune which it is.
When i started on piano at the age of 9 or ten i was always tuning it because i was not aware at that young age no instrument can be in perfect tune in all keys. Tune in one key and it will be out a little when one changes keys.
This is not here or there but i also took up violin and could tune it with out a tuning fork or pitch pipe which is all we had back at that time. It was after much studying later i learned why. Back then i had never even heard the term perfect pitch. It is something you are either born with or not. I had rather have had a good ear,not perfect pitch.
Many eons later i did get an electronic tuner when they came out to re tune to a tuning i had decided on my own was an intune sound which the Kord tuner manual recomended. No tuner will replace a bad ear for music but they are a help for many.
I no longer have a steel but can still take a out of tune fiddle and tune the 2nd A string to 440. This is in no way to pat my self on tje back. It was a curse i was born with. Tracy |
|
|
|
