U 12 Copedant ??

[b0b]

P6 lowers the string 1 semitone from the B6th position. In that position, E has already been lowered to D#. P6 lowers it a semitone further to D.

The equivalent change on a C6th lowers E to Eb, forming an F9 chord.

[Pete Burak]

There's an error in that chart above. P6 should lower string 8 to D, not D#.

P6 is great for both E9 and B6.
An open (no pedals, no bar) E9 chord becomes a 7th with P6 dropping string 8 a full tone, E>D, while string 4-E remains at E (woops! Edit: this is only true on my Push-Pull).
With E's lowered (B6th mode), P6 lowers string-8 Eb>D, and raises string-4 Eb>E.
If your P5 raises your string-1 F#>G, there's alot of E9th lick usages there, also.
Funn Stuff!

[Tony Glassman]

Gary,
Check my edited post!

It's not really a mystery. Hit the Eb lever and you have a B6 tuned guitar. Install an Eb lock and you have a B6 guitar all night. Now, forget about the A, B, and C pedals and most of the other knees. Slide up one fret and play the C6 changes on the remaining pedals. (OOps, I gave the secret away, SORRY GUYS)

I don't agree about forgetting the A and B pedals. I can use pedals A, B or A+B while in B6th, to get additional 7th, 9th and add9 chords. I don't use those pedals as a mainstay in that manner, but they do give yet a distinctive "voice" to the 6th tuning that can be interesting.

[Pete Burak]

'Gotta Love Universal!
A and B pedals too (Sometimes ya just end up with your foot over there somehow ).
In B6th mode (E's lowered to Eb), B+P6, 2-frets up from your open root position, is the same as P7 2-frets back from your root position (with a slightly different rake of strings).

Try this major scale.

Lock into B6th mode (E's>Eb's).
Rake strings 9-5 (B to B) for each position.

I(open B6, no bar),
ii (fret-2 with B+P6)
iii (fret-4 with B+6)
IV (fret-5 no pedals)
V (fret-7 no pedals)
vi (fret-9 with B+P6)
(dim)7 (fret-10 with A+B+LKV)
I (fret 12, no pedals).

On my steel, that last Dim7 uses A+B+LKV+RKR! Nice!
LKV is B>Bb (with tune-able-split for A+LKV=C).
RKR is E>Eb(B6th mode).
(I leanred this one from 'Reece Anderson, from one of his Forum posts a few years back).

Oh Yeah, Untill you put the B pedal function on another pedal or lever, you will have to use two feet for that B+P6, which is super fun to do, btw!

Here's my current S12U setup on one of my steels (my top 3 strings are probably different than yours):
[tab]
LKL LKV LKR P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 RKL1 RKL2 RKR
D# D
G# A A G
F# G
E F Eb>E F# Eb
B Bb C# C# C#
G# A# A A G
F# F
E F Eb>D Eb
B Bb C# C# D
G# A A G
E F F# Eb
B Bb A C#

[/tab]

I have a lock for RKR (E's>Eb's).
LKV has tune-able splits.
P3 is multi purpose and is rodded for standard C-pedal function, or B's>C#'s (for this fingerpickin thing I like to do), or to C for Swing stuff as a V7 two frets back from the open I chord (I think of B's>C's as the "F-lever" of the 6th tuning).
RKL1 has E>F# on it (unless I back it off and just use the F# string).
RKL2 is G#'s>G's.
LKR is my B6th "P7", (plus string-11 E>F# which I use for low end E9 fingerpickin' stuff).

I lower string 12 B>A on the A-pedal.
With A+B down, this gives me a huge open A6th chord, which opens up an entire third tuning... E9/B6/A6 Universal.

I like to have strings 2-5 and 6-9 in identicle order for S12U, for both E9 and B6.

[Dave O'Brien]

I have played U-12 for 20+ years now and have tried the E-Eb in 3 positions. I am quite happy with it on the LKR. When you go to the B6th pedals you move your leg that way anyway. If you are still going to play S-10's and D-10's you may like it there too as most guitars seem to have it there. I still drag out my old Emmons push/pulls and they are all set up that way and I can play them quite comfortably. I have never seen an S-10 or D-10 with the E-Eb on the RKR altho Sho-Buds used to have them RKL.

[Pete Burak]

I learned E's>Eb's on RKR from Jeff Newman.
Of course I've changed a ton of things since then, but this pic is from the first page of Jeffs "The Universal E9, B6 Course - Book One", which is what I started on.
This was the copedant Jeff said to get so I ordered this setup on a single body Emmons S12U PP 7x4 (Note: There's no LKR at all) and got it in Sept '82 (my first S12U).

[Tony Glassman]

- moved the "doo-wah" back to pedal 7 (I like to use it the Maj 9th pedal - 3rd & 4th whole tone raise)

- lock lever is moved to "pedal 8 position" It leaves both knees free for levers. It does not interfere w/ the LKR E 9th lever when disengaged

- B-->Bb is now on the RKL, as it is an important change to the 6th tuning (like the 3rd string 1/2 stop drop on C6th). The 1st/2nd st raises was swapped to LKV.

- the traditional ninth string "D" is still present in E9th, but gone when B6th is "locked" in

End result: nothing sacrificed but weight.

[Daniel Ibanez]

P6 lowers the string 1 semitone from the B6th position. In that position, E has already been lowered to D#. P6 lowers it a semitone further to D.
The equivalent change on a C6th lowers E to Eb, forming an F9 chord.

Agree, now I understand that. However, then another question raises: the 4th string should be E, instead of F (keeping the normal change of the P6 on C6th)
Am I missing something?
Thanks for your patience.

[b0b]

You are correct, Daniel. The 4th string raises from D# (lowered position) to E on P6.

[Pete Burak]

I kinda miss-spoke about String-4 staying at E when you enguage P6 without the E's lowered to Eb.
That only happens on my Push-Pull!... because of the mechanism differences.
On my All-Pull steels I play strings 8,6,5, (no pedals) and then hit P6 to drop string 8 to a 7th.
I like this better the raising string-9 B>D for some things.

[Daniel Ibanez]

Thanks Bon and Pete. Now all is clear. I am almost ready for a draft of a copedent.
I will be back to you soon for advice.
I need to be very careful before ordering my Uni12...

[Daniel Ibanez]

- the traditional ninth string "D" is still present in E9th, but gone when B6th is "locked" in.

Hi Tony,
I think I found something unique on your copedent.
I am contemplating to change to the U12 and so far I mainly played E9th, very little of C6th. So I was assuming that, due to the changes on the lower strings (D missing and replaced by B, and B replaced by a G#) I had to rearrange the learnt tunes or licks and also the 3-finger grips.
I read on several threads how people obtain the D, typically with one knee levers that raises the 9th string from B to D.
But now I see that your copedent keeps the 10 strings of the E9th exactly the same, while changing with the lock, in addition to the two E to Eb, also the B and G#. A smart solution that I see for the first time ever, which definitely saves any re-learning of tunes, licks and grips.
Please, some questions about your copedent:
- Is it a copedent that you personally devised or something used to some extent?
- Is there any collateral effect, tune stability or return problems, for having to raise and lower 3 semitones...?
- Any comment on your experience, regarding this copedent versus the "standard" U12?
Many thanks
Daniel

[Tony Glassman]

.......But now I see that your copedent keeps the 10 strings of the E9th exactly the same, while changing with the lock, in addition to the two E to Eb, also the B and G#. A smart solution that I see for the first time ever, which definitely saves any re-learning of tunes, licks and grips.
Please, some questions about your copedent:
- Is it a copedent that you personally devised or something used to some extent?
- Is there any collateral effect, tune stability or return problems, for having to raise and lower 3 semitones...?
- Any comment on your experience, regarding this copedent versus the "standard" U12?

Daniel, Spain is a beautiful country. My Dad lived outside of Alicante, so I was able to spend some time in both Madrid and the Med coast. We rented an old S.E.A.T and drove across central country. I'd love to make that trip again sometime.

That copedant is something I came up with to enable using a U-12 tuning without losing the traditional E-neck "D" string. I wanted to lighten the load to decrease the risk of a back injury, without giving up the ninth string.. So,I bought a Zum-12 and installed the lock lever that Bruce Zumsteg had already designed, but also added the 9th and 10th string lowers.

It works perfectly, w/o any tuning instability in either B6th or E9th. The 9th and 10th strings hold nicely, (even after in engaging what would be the 5th and 8th pedals on a traditional 10 string C6th tuning)
The system works by hitting a mid-body LKL which makes the four string changes, than pressing the lock. The lever over-pulls the changes by a few cents and then moves back to rest on the engaged lock. The trick is to tune the 4 changes after the lock is engaged.

It was a little confusing to look at 12 stings instead of 10 while playing E9th....especially forming string "grips". It was tough going at it's debut gig. My solution is to use a bronze coated 10th string, which looks sufficiently different from the other strings, to be cue to for visualizing the 10 sting array.

After playing C6th for 25 years, moving everything up one fret is the biggest challenge. While conceptually easy, the new fret positions (e.g. C=1st, E=5th and so-on) is tough in the "heat-of battle" on stage.

...But, the lighter weight is great. I like the U-12 well enough to have purchased a 2nd Zum U-12. For transport, I place the pedal-rack and legs in an ABS plastic shotgun case and the guitar by itself in its original case. I'm guessing the heaviest piece is about 40 lbs.

[Pete Burak]

That's cool, Tony.
I have a Red 1984 Zum Single Body 8x4 S12U here. I need to send it to Bruce for several upgrades inclunding the Lever Lock.

Speaking of the B6 pedals for E9th...
Another good one is using P7.
Picking strings 4,5,6, fret 3, no pedals... You know how 3 frets up from the open G chord with the F lever is a G7th chord...
Go three frets up from the A+B G-chord at fret 10, with P7, and you have the G7th (which is now also 2-frets back from the open-G at fret-15).
I have P7 on LKR on my Sierra, which makes it easier to use for me in a one-big-tuning kinda way.

[Daniel Ibanez]

Daniel, Spain is a beautiful country. My Dad lived outside of Alicante, so I was able to spend some time in both Madrid and the Med coast. We rented an old S.E.A.T and drove across central country. I'd love to make that trip again sometime.

That copedant is something I came up with to enable using a U-12 tuning without losing the traditional E-neck "D" string.
... My solution is to use a bronze coated 10th string, which looks sufficiently different from the other strings, to be cue to for visualizing the 10 sting array.

Hi Tony,
looks like you have good memories from Spain. San Sebastian (in the north) is my hometown but I worked in Valencia 10 years, so I know some of Alicante, and now I am living in Madrid. If you ever come round, please give me a tinkle.
Regarding your copedent, again, very interesting. Also your idea of using the bronze coated strings so that they can visually be differentiated, that's something I will probably have to do, if I have my way and can get me a Uni12.
I am not a pro but an amateur anyway.
Many thanks for your hints.
Daniel

[Tony Glassman]

Pete - I love that red Zum. I bet it looks and sounds killer on-stage. BTW: What kind of upgrades are you having done?

Daniel - I'll send some more underbelly photos of the current Zum U-12 when it's finished. It's in hold, while I'm awaiting parts from Bruce.

[Pete Burak]

Pete - I love that red Zum. I bet it looks and sounds killer on-stage. BTW: What kind of upgrades are you having done?

Wish list for this steel...
I need a LKV.
I would like a RKL-2.
I need that part that goes on the end of the changer with the row of allen-screws for the split-tuners.
The B6 Lever Lock.
And several bell-crank/rod/nylon-tuner assemblies to get all my pedal lever changes rodded up.
But yeah, it is a nice light steel that plays and sounds great.

[Tony Glassman]

Buy the parts and DIY.

I'm in the process of doing all tthose mods(except the spit-tuning screws) for the 2nd time on my newer Zum. I'd be happy to help out. We could use my guitar as a template.

[Tony Glassman]

Buy the parts and DIY.

I'm in the process of doing all those mods (except the spit-tuning screws) for the 2nd time on my other Zum. I'd be happy to help out, and we could use my guitar as a template.

[John Polstra]

I kinda miss-spoke about String-4 staying at E when you enguage P6 without the E's lowered to Eb.
That only happens on my Push-Pull!... because of the mechanism differences.
On my All-Pull steels I play strings 8,6,5, (no pedals) and then hit P6 to drop string 8 to a 7th.
I like this better the raising string-9 B>D for some things.

Pete, I'm still not sure I understand what you're saying. Is this for going from an open string E major to an E7 chord? If so, I think you'd have to press the E lower lever at the same time you pushed P6.

[EDIT:] Oooops . . . never mind. I just tried it, and now I see how it works. P6 lowers string 8 a whole step regardless of whether the Es are lowered. Sorry for the noise.

John

[Pete Burak]

I kinda miss-spoke about String-4 staying at E when you enguage P6 without the E's lowered to Eb.
That only happens on my Push-Pull!... because of the mechanism differences.
On my All-Pull steels I play strings 8,6,5, (no pedals) and then hit P6 to drop string 8 to a 7th.
I like this better the raising string-9 B>D for some things.

Pete, I'm still not sure I understand what you're saying. Is this for going from an open string E major to an E7 chord? If so, I think you'd have to press the E lower lever at the same time you pushed P6.

[EDIT:] Oooops . . . never mind. I just tried it, and now I see how it works. P6 lowers string 8 a whole step regardless of whether the Es are lowered. Sorry for the noise.

John

No noise at all, John. This is exactly the type of stuff I hope folks would try (and hopefully find useful).
And you are right, for an all-pull Steel you would have to hit the E>Eb lower at the same time you hit P6 if you want to keep string 4 at an E note (string 8 will be a D), and yes, this is for going from an E to and E7 in general.

In another case, maybe you want string 9 to be a B, but you want the D, too.
Use P6 to lower string-8 E to D.

You could also play string 11 and string 8 together (both are E notes) and press P6 on/off also.
Guitar players do this all the time. There is a song called New Speedway Boogie that uses this lick as the intro lick.
It's easy on a standard S12U, but impossible on a standard S10/D10 or Extended E9.

[John Polstra]

Rereading my "correction", I should have said that P6 lowers string 8 to D regardless of whether the Es are lowered.

Anyway, thanks for pointing out these uses of P6 in E9 mode. I normally get my D by raising string 9 B->D on RKR, and I really like that change. But it's extra nice to see that I can also lower string 8 to get the same note. Ooooh . .. I just realized that by using both of those changes, I can converge to a unison D from opposite directions on strings 9 and 8. That's pretty cool!

Are you guys who play uni able to reach all 8 pedals with your left foot while keeping your knee between the LKL and LKR levers? Even hitting P5 and P6 puts my left leg at an uncomfortable angle, and if I reach for P8 I put so much pressure on LKR that I worry about damaging it. Obviously I could move LKR over toward the right, but I hate to add a bunch of extra air between my left knee and its levers.

John

[Pete Burak]

John,
My left leg swings like a pendulum over all the pedals while the knee remains between LKL/LKR.
My pedals are set like a mild smiley face to help accomdate this.

[John Polstra]

Pete, where are your LKL and LKR levers positioned, relative to your foot pedals? Mine are more or less lined up with P2 (B pedal) and P4.

John

[Pete Burak]

John,
My LKL is above the B-pedal.
My LKR is above P5.

You should be able to adjust things to be able to reach all the pedals and levers easily.
What brand is your S12U?
What change do you have on LKR?

fwiw, there is one train of thought that completely eliminates LKL from S12U.
It's that 7x4 setup pictured above from the Jeff Newman book.

Feel free to give a ring to discuss U12 stuff if you would like (that goes for anyone).
Pete Burak
503-621-8209