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Topic: Tone woods and body density control tone and sustain? |
Raymond Jones
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 7 Sep 2011 12:53 pm |
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Always - always I hear this debate, and it makes perfect sense. But,maybe only for acoustic guitars is it totally true. I have lap steels in solid cast aluminum, solid bakelite ricky, several various woods from fender, supro and gibson, several home made aluminum and wood - I put the various tones and sustain down to the materials and pickups each has. Then came along my 7 string Harmos, NO body that has any mass, only the strings and two jason l. pickups. The tone and sustain blow me away. I mounted it on a bongo stand that gives me height adjustment and also angle. It is all fun.
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2011 2:14 pm
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| Lets hear it! |
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2011 5:06 pm
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Raymond,
Several years ago at a trade show I had this same discussion with couple of very well known hi-fi speaker designers. The point they made was that high mass or high density was not that significant a factor. Rigidity of the structure was far more important in producing a true representation of the vibrating string. Since dense objects tend be more ridged (with many exceptions such as lead, mercury ect.) people often jump to the conclusion that mass plays a bigger roll than it really does. A light weight, low density, rigid structure was in many cases ideal but since different materials of different densities, weight, and stiffness would accentuate or cancel out certain frequencies there was a lot more to it depending what you were looking for in tone. They concluded that when all else fails follow your intuition, and despite many attempts, nobody has actually been able to fully explain why a Stradivarius violin sounds so wonderful other than to say that the maker was a genius.
Gary Meixner |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 7 Sep 2011 9:30 pm
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I have a hunch that Jason Lollar pickups would sound good mounted on a tin can.  Good point about rigidity. And how lap steels of all sorts of materials sound great- some because the 60 year old wood is so light and some because the modern mahogany is so heavy. Go figure.
Looking at electric guitars a thinline hollow-body ES-335 isn't that different from a Les Paul when plugged into an amp, although there is a world of difference in how they sound unplugged.
Steve Ahola
_________________
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Recordings on electric guitar:
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 7 Sep 2011 10:29 pm
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Rigidity is an important factor in the equation for good sustain in a stringed instrument.
I've always looked at it this way, when you pluck the string, there is a fixed value of the potential energy in that sting.
The length of time it vibrates is your sustain. Short of plucking the string again, there is nothing you can do to add to the sustain. The best you can do is minimize the loss.
_________________
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Jason Hull
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Posted 8 Sep 2011 12:47 am
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| Rigidity, or stiffness, alone is not the deciding factor; the stiffness-to-weight ratio is. This is why spruce is the premier acoustic guitar top material, as it has a very high s/w ratio. Carbon fiber is the newest premier material for instruments, and it has an even higher s/w ratio, possibly the highest of any material likely to be used in an instrument. Wood and carbon fiber do not sound the same, and it is subjective as to what sounds good or better. In a steel guitar, sustain is highly valued, and carbon fiber can help to minimize damping factors and maximize sustain. |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 8 Sep 2011 1:21 am
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Steve Ahola said:
| Quote: |
| Looking at electric guitars a thinline hollow-body ES-335 isn't that different from a Les Paul when plugged into an amp,..... |
I differ, if I may. An ES335 (mainly it's wood and cavity resonance) comes alive in a strong speaker field; A matter of the speaker field exciting the acoustic amplitude of the wood's vibrations which feed back into and floats around in the body / neck / strings loop; ....more banshee the stronger / louder the speaker field is and how deep the guitar gets into the field; With such character not even in the same ball park as an LP (although yes, pretty close at lower speaker field strength). The larger diameter the speaker is (generally), the fuller the frequency spectrum is that excites the wood and thus the fuller / rounder the guitar's electric tones are. Attenuation at any given stronger volume level, is determined by how deep or shallow the player thus guitar gets into the speaker field.
Many years ago a center-block 335 in a 2x15 JBL field was my magic carpet; Until I (re)discovered masonite Danelectros which do the same thing, but with MUCH more dynamics in tone that responds to every pick and fingers nuance; Banshee lover with a vibrator up her ....uhhhh ....JACK (whew)!
But even though being excited by a strong speaker field offers a good example; It doesn't take loud volume for a guitar's body and hardware to contribute substantially to a guitar's tone:
I have found that whatever spans / mounts a nut, bridge and strings does indeed have tone that "floats" in that loop, generated by the vibrating strings exciting the guitar's materials (certain wave-lengths conductance, sympathy, resonance, harmonic resonance, etc.). A doctors stethescope is the very best instrument I have found to explore all over a guitar to hear / locate tone nuances the pickup gets from the strings, and even from the pickup being acoustically excited by the guitar body if the pickup is hard mounted. A stethescope is also a great instrument to listen to scratching and tapping on boards (the longer the better) in selecting woods to make a solid body electric guitar from (even metal stock). A mechanics stethescope is good for listening to what tuner shafts, nuts, bridges, metal plates, etc. are contributing to a guitar's tone. The very noticeable electrified sound that flipping a Telecaster pickup switch makes, or that a Fender steel with a trapezoid pickup makes when tapping on it's mounting / cover plate, ....is purely acoustic sound conducting into the strings and thus into the pickup(s), and into the pickups plates which are super acoustic antennaes directly into the pickups casings / coils.
I feel sure that a stethescope would reveal substantial tone being contributed by a Harmos's girder frame and end-plates.
But then again, more than a few folks have said I'm a freakin' nutcase  .
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 8 Sep 2011 6:30 am
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I think the point that my speaker designer friend was making was that the purest string tone would be generated by suspending the string between two points that were connect and as rigid as possible. From there the energy could be directed to excite a variety of materials which would add there own tonal character. It was up to the designer to decide which characteristics were favorable and use materials and structures that would deliver them - but of all the possible material characteristics density was very low on the list of contributors to what we call good tone.
Best,
Gary Meixner |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 8 Sep 2011 8:33 am
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Interesting subject. It gets difficult to understand when two identical guitars, like bakelite or frypans for example, wont always sound the same, or sometimes even have the same sustain. Wood being wood, always a difference from one piece to the next, of the same species, and maybe even from the same tree! 
The carbon fiber guitar pictured, is a mystery to me But whatever works......  |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 8 Sep 2011 11:57 am
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| Denny Turner wrote: |
Steve Ahola said:
| Quote: |
| Looking at electric guitars a thinline hollow-body ES-335 isn't that different from a Les Paul when plugged into an amp,..... |
I differ, if I may. An ES335 (mainly it's wood and cavity resonance) comes alive in a strong speaker field... |
I agree with you completely once you crank your amp up a little bit- I was thinking of the pure signal run into an oscilloscope.
Steve
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 8 Sep 2011 11:59 am
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I think everyone's contribution provides very good and different perspectives, angles, elements, etc. in a very interesting broad and abstract subject / picture.
So far I think this discussion's elements can be categorized into:
(1) the mechanics of getting the strings to vibrate as much and purely as 'possible' (most often 'plausible' ...even unplanned... in the real world), and;
(2) what other material elements in a guitar react with the strings vibrations and inject their own sympathetic, physical, acoustic properties into the strings and thus into pickups.
Notwithstanding that there are many other elements that contribute to the tone of electric guitars that is transmitted out their jacks.
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
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Last edited by Denny Turner on 10 Sep 2011 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 8 Sep 2011 7:56 pm
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Another factor could be how rigidly or loosely the pickup is mounted. On regular guitars there is usually some isolation between the pickup and the body but I have ran across steel guitars with the pickup screwed right into the wood with no springs, foam or rubber tubing. (There is usually less body on a steel to create feedback so that might have something to do with it.)
Any thoughts on that?
Steve
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 9 Sep 2011 5:28 am
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| Denny Turner wrote: |
| ... Notwithstanding that there are many other elements that contribute to the tone of electric guitars that is transmitted out their jacks. |
| Steve Ahola wrote: |
| Another factor could be how rigidly or loosely the pickup is mounted. ... Any thoughts on that?... |
As has been noted above, beyond the hard science of what makes an electric guitar / steel work, the flavor and voice of that instrument is influenced by many things.
At its simplest, the voice of a guitar / steel is the sum of all its parts and construction. To varying degrees, everything has a role to play.
Top of the list is pickups and electronics, they contribute the lions share to the formula. I think of woods, other materials, and construction details as the spice in the dish. These are details that affect things like note bloom / decay, attack, overtones for example.
All in all, its not a lot unlike a cook putting together a great dish. There are a lot of ways to cook a chicken and most of them are good, just different.
_________________
Some misc pics of my hand crafted steels
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 9 Sep 2011 6:05 am
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This reminds me of a post in the Pedal section about a wooden neck guitar that John Hughey had.
Franklin guitar co's guitars are primarily aluminum neck guitars. They had one at St Louis, at the ISGC, a while back with (very hard) Brazilian hardwood necks on it. Franklin claimed it had the same sound as the aluminum neck Franklin guitars, and his point was that the neck material was not the primary reason for a guitar's characteristic tone. Paul Franklin, Jr, has or had this guitar. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2011 12:22 pm
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I went to an estate sale years ago. Saw a DeArmand pickup, and grabbed it. The son asked if I might be interested in his late father's guitar. To my delight, out came an old 40's vintage Gibson case! In it was an L-5. You know how L-5s have very highly-figured sides and backs? This guitar had abdo-lutey no figuring, just very straight grain. I commented on that, and he told me that his Dad had ordered it that way from Gibson. I asked him what his father had done for a living? He said, "Acoustic Engineer."
The guitar sounded great! Even with old strings on it. A cannon, but with a full sound. Not as bright as others I'd played. Alas! Couldn't afford it...... |
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Jason Hull
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Posted 9 Sep 2011 12:53 pm
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| John Billings wrote: |
| This guitar had abdo-lutey no figuring, just very straight grain. I commented on that, and he told me that his Dad had ordered it that way from Gibson. I asked him what his father had done for a living? He said, "Acoustic Engineer." The guitar sounded great! |
Wood figure, while pretty, is a "defect" and decreases a woods stiffness and stability. That guy's father knew what he wanted and why. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2011 1:22 pm
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Eggs Ackley, JH!
JB |
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Mike D
From:
Phx, Az
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Posted 9 Sep 2011 1:30 pm
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I just wanted to point out that the Harmos certainly does have mass...  |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2011 6:40 pm
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| Many years ago, Sage and I had a very enjoyable discussion about how he was inspired by Buckminster Fuller's tensegrities. |
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Raymond Jones
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 9 Sep 2011 8:49 pm
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Chas - that would be a treat to know what Sage thought that encouraged him to build the Harmos. Thank you for mentioning it.
Last edited by Raymond Jones on 10 Sep 2011 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2011 9:06 pm
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"tensegrities"
Probably one of the toughest college courses I took in Architectural School, Statics, dealt with this subject. Pre-calculator. Sometimes a problem took 5/6 hours to resolve, using a "slip stick." |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2011 1:54 am
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| Steve Ahola wrote: |
| Another factor could be how rigidly or loosely the pickup is mounted. |
You bet, Steve. Case in point is that a rubber tube as a tensioner around a pickup mounting screw absorbs body vibrations conductance thru the screw to the pickup; Even thick & tight rubber washers to buffer pickup bezel mount screws on acoustic electrics such as (and particularly) partial center-bloc 335s; While a spring tensioner will induce a faint mid-range reverberation into the pickup casing / bobbin / coil, ...even from harmonic rattles if a mounting bezel is involved and loose. But sometimes we would want the pickup casing to vibrate through and screw and the casing down tight on the body. ....Albeit those nuances are at very low amplitude compared to an electric guitar's other mainstream signal elements. But as a guitar's amp gain is pushed up to the preamp's and / or power amp's headroom ceilings, the peak of those stronger signals flatten out without any farther volume increase as gain is turned up even more; But the lower amplitude nuances down in the bottom of the headroom will continue to increase in amplitude / volume as the gain is increased and thus in presence and noticeability; And since many players fill / exceed headroom for compression, sustain, signal instability and dynamics, etc, ....then the nuances' increase in amplitude become more apparant and thus meaningful in designing or setting up a guitar for a Player that runs his amp at higher gain like that; Particularly for aggresive playing techniques; And particularly when dialing in a Telecaster or acoustic-electrics for such playing if the player wants such elements to be more stable!
So I suppose that high gain is a way of showing that the many elements and their seemingly small nuances, that folks in this discussion have mentioned, do indeed contribute to the sound character that exits an electric guitar's jack at any volume level, ...similar to how many elements make the sound character of an acoustic guitar.
And again, a Telecaster is a prime example and study of the several basic elements that contribute and work together to create it's unique sound character that acoustically induced sound is a big part of; Differing preferences for a flat or ash tray saddle plate a good example.
But now I waffle: For about 45 of the 53 years that I've played and worked on guitars, and dearly loved the sound of steel guitar; I too have thought that a steel guitar builder could (and some do) accomplish a delightful pure-string electric signal by mounting it's strings on as stiff, rigid and acousticly conductive materials as possible, and utilizing a pickup that would capture the strings pure sound with the least amount of coloration. But then again the broad spectrum of human tastes would surely "argue" what different pickups do translate uncolored sound, and would surely "argue" what different steel guitar builders have improved that pure string sound; And let's see, we could add some little rollers on the nut and..............
Now where is Mr. Natural when we need him ? !
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 11 Sep 2011 8:05 am New Engineering New EyeDeers
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Mr.Natural Here to add his 22.5 cents.
I've been investing big bucks again at the CNC Machine Shop and have achieved Lift Off - so to speak.
The Daze of Roller Pins are now far behind me and the photos below will detail why.
1st off roller pins are much easier and much less expensive to create, hence, the reason Fender and many others used them.
I've reduced the contact area down to around 1/16th of an inch and translated it to the body via a 1/2" wide floor foot of high density Brass with hold down screws into the wood body. The Nickel Plating is strictly for visual beauty and to prevent the Brass from Tarnishing.
The Concave approach has created a most desirable waveform at the junction of the Body and Brass. Our precision V Grooves also double the contact at the string to metal point, increasing the energy tremendously. The result is a huge amount resonance-sustain what ever you want to call it, more than the roller pin ever thought of. The Accuracy of where "Zero" is -- relating to scale length -- has improved drastically.
Regarding our attachment of the pickup directly to the body with no padding or suspension -- I can not make any informed statement, we do it to save cost in manufacturing -- no need for a routed chamber or beauty ring.
I've seldom thought that String Through really added enough to make them a necessity. We are developing a top mounted Brass String Retainer with screw to body contact that has energy transfer equal to or greater than string-through.
MR.Boards has chimed in on this thread mostly because it has drifted into the Metals-PUP Realm.
Hope this add to the Discussion.
Aloha
GeorgeBoards GeorgeBoard George Boards
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2011 10:52 am Re: New Engineering New EyeDeers
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| George Piburn wrote: |
| Mr.Natural Here..... |
Hey Boss; Found this pic of you medi-tatin' in the garden when you were here a few years back givin' great sermons at the Church of the Holy Moley !
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(*and the choir hums 'In The Garden' on their kazoos*)
_________________
Aloha,
Denny T~
http://www.dennysguitars.com/
Please help support humanity:
http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus |
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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