Recommendations for the easiest amp setup I can gig with

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 4 Sep 2011 4:09 pm

Hey fellas, I'm a little new to the PSG thing, but I've been gigging with my country band for a few months now, alternating between a double-8 lap steel, a B-bender, and an old J45. It's quite the gymnastics act... and unfortunately quite the load-in and load-out, too.

In an effort to push further into "country" territory, I'm supplanting the lap steel with a Sho Bud Pro I that I just bought. I'm learning a lot from reading here, and fortunately I'm a pretty quick study, so hopefully in the next month or so, I'll be working the pedal steel into the gig and phasing out the lap steel.

HOWEVER, that means... rig changes, probably. I try to gig with the smallest amp I can, because even though we're playing country, a fair amount of it calls for dirt. Gotta love that modern stuff... $:\$

I'd like to avoid bringing two amps if possible, but maybe it's not. I usually use an old Deluxe Reverb. That's probably not gonna cut it for the pedal steel. I could use a Vibrolux or a high-power tweed Twin with a reverb pedal, but I still don't think any of those are going to play well with the PSG. On the other hand, the lap steel sounds fine when I tune it to E9 and fake the pedal parts by bending behind the bar, so maybe I'm getting worried for nothing? And it's hot enough - after all it's got 8-string PAFs in it, so there's plenty of beef.

In any case. I could use some suggestions from you experts on how I should proceed. I'm not against buying a new amp if it means I'll sound better, but if there's anything I could use that allows me to continue on with a single amp, I should probably look at it. Or perhaps I just need to reconfigure my current setup. Any suggestions or ideas or guidance would be MUCH appreciated. Thanks!

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 4 Sep 2011 5:51 pm

I would think the Twin would work well for your steel. Lots of players swear by them.

If you do a search for "Twin Reverb" you should find lots of info to work with.

Tom Wolverton · Post by **Tom Wolverton** » 4 Sep 2011 7:50 pm

I typically play 4 instruments: lap, dobro, mandolin and D-8 steel. I do it with a pedalboard into a GK MB200 with a single 12" Peavey BW. It's a simple rig but I'm not playing PSG yet. (soon). Good luck.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 5 Sep 2011 2:39 am

The twin might have too much power for the dirt you need on other instruments. You could look into having a half-power/impedance switch installed to change it to a lower wattage amp when needed.

Dan

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 5 Sep 2011 11:01 am

Interesting replies. I should point out that it's a TWEED Twin, so it's a pretty different beast from the Twin Reverb we've all come to know and love. It definitely breaks up quicker and has a lot more midrange on tap. I've danced around the idea of grabbing a Twin Reverb for years, but the weight always threw me off. Almost ended up with one a year ago when I started playing with Eric Gales - Two Rock makes a 100W signature model amp for him, and he likes to play it loud. The rhythm parts I was playing in that band required some serious headroom.

Anyway. I keep seeing mention of this MB200 and I'm getting more and more fascinated by it... a buddy of mine (bass player) uses one of those. Are a lot of steel players using them? Perhaps that in conjunction with one of those Tech 21 Character Series pedals for the regular guitar parts could be the solution. And of course the reverb pedal... but I've got a Strymon Blue Sky, which is about as good as reverb pedals need to get... plus I can set it up for two completely different reverbs and footswitch between the two. If I went the MB200 route, what else would I need? Just a cab? Because I've actually got an old Showman tone ring cab with a D130F in it. That could be lethal for pedal steel.

Pit Lenz · Post by **Pit Lenz** » 5 Sep 2011 11:13 am

hello Atom (what a cool name!)
I´m happily gigging with a Tech21 "The Blonde" when travelling light. I use it with a HolyGrail+ and an active 12" Speaker cab. The blonde offers many different sound characters. Very versatile and light. The whole shebang (Steel, amp, packAseat) fits on a foldable handtruck.

But if possible, I still prefer to take the Vibrosonic

greetings pit

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 5 Sep 2011 11:10 pm

A Twin Reverb with a quality stomp pedal such as a Sparkle Drive...I'm wondering why some think the Twin is too loud..

turn it down !

The Twin will cover all the ground you may ever need for any and all electric Instruments. The PSG requires extended head room @ gig levels...this is where the Twin Reverb leaves the rest of the crowd in the dust. Sure it weighs more than a Deluxe Reverb but you get more for the weight.

Use an amp that matches your requirement. I used a 70 Twin R for 25 years, now I use a 71 for Guitars and PSG. It's not about volume , but can be...

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 6 Sep 2011 3:02 am

Tony, if he wants to get the amp to break up on its own (which many prefer to a distortion pedal), he'd have to push the twin into the loud area to get there.

The twin does not necessarily sound different at low volumes, but in my experience some speakers don't have their characteristic sound until they are pushed to a certain level.

Of course, now we are off the original topic, since it turns out Atom is talking about a tweed twin. I for one know nothing about that amp.

Dan

Tor Arve Baroy · Post by **Tor Arve Baroy** » 6 Sep 2011 3:39 am

I use a Carl martin Rock bug straight to the mixer, get the sound back thru the monitors. Work great and weighs nothing

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 6 Sep 2011 5:12 am

Dan agreed, I understood the question as what AMP would fit ALL the criteria. As you stated, and you are correct, the Twin will not break up but given that the PSG needs extended headroom, that's what would be required... an amp that will not break up !

My take is to get the amp ( talking tube amp here ) that best works and is best suited to the PSG and adjust from there, the PSG is the worst case scenario for the amp...once you are pleased with an amp that can best handle the PSG, work your way BACK to the guitars and overdrive. Sadly there is not an amp that drives like a Deluxe reverb at 4 or 5 on the knob while staying clean with a ton of headroom when you plug in the PSG..It's one or the other..

If someone is asking me, ( tube amp wise) the Twin Reverb with a high quality OD pedal( not a cheap $39 pedal) will rise to the occasion. I also am not familiar with the TWEED Twin I just know it's not a Twin Reverb and it appears that it cannot handle double duty all that well.

thanks

t

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 6 Sep 2011 6:35 am

Another vote for the Twin Reverb as an excellent guitar/steel solution. Mine is modded with reverb and trem on both channels. The normal channel is modded with a tweed tone stack and the vibrato channel is black face Twin. It has a switch that cuts out two power tubes, bringing the output down to about 35 watts. At the lower setting I get just enough hair to sweeten the six string - flip it back and I have headroom for steel. Some neo speakers to lighten the load and you're good to go in just about any situation.

From what I have read, the Tweed Twin will probably sound great for guitar but not give you the clean headroom you need for steel.

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 6 Sep 2011 6:43 am

Well, it looks like I found my solution. I had a 64 Princeton I was looking to sell, and I found a guy over on the gear page who was looking to trade his Vibroclone (basically a Vibroverb with a 100W output transformer) for a smaller lighter amp. So I'll get a really clean blackface amp with a 15" speaker, and he'll get his grab-and-go. I'll have to rework the pedalboard a bit, but I think that'll get the job done.

Tom Wolverton · Post by **Tom Wolverton** » 6 Sep 2011 7:09 am

That should work. Please report back on this thread how it all works out and what you ended up with on the pedalboard.

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 6 Sep 2011 7:56 am

Absolutely! I'm pretty excited to hear it.

The pedals I'll be working with are:
-Klon Centaur - great for adding a little grit while letting the amp's voice show, but it takes up a lot of space on the board
-Mad Professor Sweet Honey OD - great for mid-gain OD tones, but when it's on you know it's on
-Resonant Electronics Manifold Drive - another good mid gainer but it's pretty transparent and I don't really like transparent drives with BF-style amps as well as I like them with other amps - however, it might work, I'll just have to try it out

Then of course I have to figure out what I want to keep from these:
-MXR Phase 90 - one word, WAYLON!
-Strymon Blue Sky Reverb - great because I can set a reverb level for the guitar and one for the PSG and footswitch between them, or use the amp's reverb... but the pedal is nice when you're on a hollow stage where the drummer's kick makes the amp (and the reverb tank with it) bounce
-Strymon Lex - killer Leslie stuff... I've heard some really neat applications of PSG + Leslie sim for covering some of the keyboard parts when there isn't an apparent steel part
-Demeter Tremulator - great trem pedal. I got this so the trem would be the same from night to night no matter what amp I'm playing through. I only use it for a few tunes in the country band, but I feel naked without it when I want it. As a guy who's usually stayed as far away from pedals as possible (most electric gigs I just plug and play if I can get away with it), I tend to like a good reverb and trem on the amp so I don't need much else. Alas, this gig probably won't let me get away with that.

On the plus side, it looks like we might have someone to take over the acoustic duties which at least means one less instrument to bring. Then again, I'll probably also be adding my baritone guitar to the mix so I'll be back to 3

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 6 Sep 2011 9:30 am

Very nice looking amp - kudos to the builder! Hopefully you will get enough headroom from two 6L6s for PSG, but you may find it coming up a little short in high volume situations.

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 6 Sep 2011 9:57 am

Tim Whitlock wrote:Very nice looking amp - kudos to the builder! Hopefully you will get enough headroom from two 6L6s for PSG, but you may find it coming up a little short in high volume situations.

From what I understand, they took a SF Fender of some sort, blackfaced it, added reverb, and then did the mods (for example, the OT). Threw it into the correct cab, and voila.

My hope is that there won't be any super high-volume situations. We try to keep volume as low as possible. When I started in the band the other guitar player was using a tweed Champ. I kind of miss that -- he's on to a Hot Rod Deluxe now, so it's a little louder, but still I shouldn't have any headroom issues keeping up with that and the drummer unless we're all doing something very wrong.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Sep 2011 11:31 am

I think a lot of this depends on how you approach playing (steel and guitar) and what you want to sound like. There's no singular standard for what constitutes 'good tone' for either pedal steel or guitar. The other thing is how you use your volume pedal for pedal steel. If you're typically playing with it on 1/3-1/2 to reserve the rest for sustain as your notes decay (as many PSG players do), you wouldn't be getting the full juice out of the amp. But if you're hitting the strings full-on with your VP full-on, that's quite different.

A quality BF Vibroverb clone is a good idea. I can use a Pro Reverb or another 50-watt amp like that IF the stage volume isn't too loud OR I have decent monitor/front-of-house support. But I have trouble with one of these on a loud stage if there isn't decent PA support - both monitors and fronts. Other guitar with tweed Champ - sounds great. Hot Rod Deluxe - well, for me it would depend on how it's used and how the drummer reacts.

As already stated, a Twin Reverb with a switch that cuts out two power tubes and one speaker together for guitar (to maintain proper load impedance) is also very workable.

I think a high-power tweed Twin might possibly work with some mild outboard EQ to cut some heavy midrange, and perhaps playing around with the preamp tubes - let's say consider some lower-gain tubes like 5751 or 12AY7 in strategic places (experiment).

If pressed, I can get by with a Nashville 112 or 400 for pedal steel and use a modeler to soften the guitar and then into the Nashville Power Amp In. It's also an inexpensive solution. I know some people just hate modelers, so YMMV.

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 12 Sep 2011 11:00 am

Well. The Vibroverb showed up Saturday. It's got a Twin OT, btw.... so it's a little beefier than your average Vibroverb. My Sho-Bud doesn't show up till sometime tomorrow, so in the meantime I've been playing this guy:

Anyway. I'm starting to understand why you all use such high power amps for steel. At the same time, I think this amp should be plenty. Unfortunately I've got a JBL D130 just sitting in a Showman cabinet, just begging for me to put it in there. I really don't want all that extra weight, and I don't really feel like running out for a Neo just yet (although I probably should given the rising prices...)

But yeah, all in all, I think I did really well. Got rid of an amp I couldn't use, ended up with a near-perfect steel amp.

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 9 Feb 2012 9:15 pm

Huh. I forgot about this thread, but I was going to put in an update once I got used to the amp.

I've been at it with the steel a bit longer. Got some help from Joe Savage, and now I know just how bad I really am. Anyway, the Vibroverb is a good steel amp, but I ended up liking the tweed Twin a little more with the Strymon Blue Sky reverb pedal in front.

Still... the tube amps do eventually run out of headroom on bigger stages, and some of the rooms we play are pretty big (2000 people or more in some cases). Stage volume gets a little out of hand sometimes. Anyway, I happened upon a Webb 614-E here so I grabbed that and have been using it since. Much better for PSG. Now I can see why they're so popular around here.

That said, I still wish I had a one-amp solution since I'm now bringing two electric guitars, an acoustic, a trumpet, the PSG, two amps, and a pedalboard/cables. And stands! And a drum throne! Eeek. But it's not really too bad - I just throw it all on a cart and go. And lately I've been using a Tone King Imperial for the guitar parts, which weighs in at a scant 30lbs.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Feb 2012 1:10 am

Atom Schmitt wrote: Still... the tube amps do eventually run out of headroom on bigger stages, and some of the rooms we play are pretty big (2000 people or more in some cases). Stage volume gets a little out of hand sometimes.

That said, I still wish I had a one-amp solution

The solution is still the same...and has been for over 40 years now ! Take the plunge, join the Circus !

Josh Yenne · Post by **Josh Yenne** » 10 Feb 2012 2:39 pm

I basically agree that the Twin would be a pretty good choice for them all...

Like someone said... start with what makes your steel sound good and then just take what you can get with the guitar... I prefer playing a princeton for the guitar which is 12 watts... doesn't really cut if for the steel if there is a drummer playing anythign but brushes....

good luck.... I'm trying to figure out the same thing... I want to keep me load-in and out as easy as possible. I usually charge double if people want me to play both steel and guitar at a gig... just so much damn setup... and the EQ settings when I switch from one to the other is normally completely different....

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 11 Feb 2012 1:22 pm

See, I disagree about the Twin. I spend more time playing electric guitar than I do steel usually. And as much as I love big blackface cleans, we have to play a lot of modern country that requires dirt. Lots of dirt. And I'm not a pedals-for-all-my-dirt kind of guy. It just doesn't sound right. The amp has to be a part of that equation. The closest I got to making this work was running the steel through a reverb pedal into the normal channel of the Vibroverb and putting the guitar through the vibrato channel, but even then, it didn't work. I like different monitor settings for the steel than I do for the electric.

I more or less gave up, got a nice cart, and started gigging with two amps. Truth be told, it hasn't been as much of an issue as I thought it would be. The cart made all the difference.

Keith Davidson · Post by **Keith Davidson** » 28 Feb 2012 12:19 pm

Atom,

Here's what I use, I play tenor sax, piano, and electronic sax. The last thing I wanted to do was to start dragging an amp around as well now that I added the steel to the stage.

This works great for me, out of the pedal into the board and out of the board to the channel on the amp.

Keith

Benjamin Wolfram · Post by **Benjamin Wolfram** » 28 Feb 2012 3:12 pm

I'm a bit late to the party here but you mentioned having a Tweed Twin in your first post...that's one of the amps I was looking at for my PSG and I would have loved to get one because I play some normal guitar too and this would definitely have been high enough powered to cope with the PSG I think...with a nice reverb pedal of course.

Looks like you've already got something nice though, I'm interested if the Tweed Twin sounds good with the PSG when you get it though.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 28 Feb 2012 3:29 pm

Suck it up and stick the JBL in there, you'll never look back