Second RKL on GFI U-12

[Robert Vince]

I recently purchased a used U-12 that came with some non-standard pulls, including the subject second knee lever. It is closer to the edge of the edge of the guitar and drops 6 from G# to G. The other RKL drops 6 from G# to F#. When seated at the guitar centered at fret 15-16, the second knee lever is unavailable because of the first RKL, that is, the throw is such that the first RKL prevents contact with second. My question is, when one plays a guitar with this kind of knee lever setup, do you move away from the guitar so that the knee can miss the farther away lever or do you adjust the throw so that the leg contacts the closer lever first and then the second, since the drop from the closer lever is exceeded by the drop of the second? All information will be greatly appreciated.

[Larry Bell]

RKL is the lever I least like to stagger because of volume pedal issues. It can work ok if you adjust it properly.

I'll call the one nearest the front apron RKL out and the one nearest you RKL in.

The first critical adjustment is to be able to completely engage RKL out without touching RKL in. This requires a lever with adjustable tilt OR the lever must be physically moved.

The second adjustment is the front-to-back spacing. On a single neck guitar, staggered knee levers are not easy to use because they must be so close together, front-to-back. On a D-10 frame, there's a lot more room. Do you have to scoot forward and backward? A little bit even if they're properly spaced. You should only need to scoot off the RKL outside enough to clear the lever. Naturally, this distance is set unless you move a lever -- and there may not be room. A flag on the back side of RKL in may make it easier to navigate -- it gives your knee a bit more metal to latch onto.

I use 8 levers on a single neck guitar, so I've been round the staggered levers block a time or two.

Maybe it's a stupid question, but why don't you just split the G# to F# with the B pedal -- that's how most folks get the G. I would also look into lowering the 3rd to G on that lever (RKL in) if you're planning on keeping that change. It gives you Em on 3,4,5,6,8,10.

[Robert Vince]

Thank you Larry for your reply. I guess I don't have any particular commitment to the RKL in because I can get the G on string 6 with a half RKL out. The default copedent put the G on strings 1 & 7 with RKL, omitting the F# available on string 6, the G# on string 1 and the E on string 2. The F# on string 6 gives A7 at fret 0 with AB down. I think I'm going to post my entire copedent (as received) for comments; maybe that will make things a bit clearer

[Jerry Hayes]

Robert, when I got my BMI S-12 about twenty years ago it had an additional RKL lever also. That was the first change I made on the guitar, taking it off. I left the crossbar on the guitar and later had an 8th floor pedal added to it. Those extra Right knee levers are just too hard to operate properly. When I play my steel I just want to set on my pack seat in one spot and not move in and out or from side to side......JH in Va.

[Pete Burak]

Thats how I have my RKL levers.
As Larry says, I have it set up so that when RKL on the front apron is fully enguaged, I am barely touching the the RKL closest to me.
I also lower G# to G on the front apron RKL.
I still have hope that LKF/RKF will someday become standard. I'd rather have a Forward lever than a second L/R.
It's easy to move your knee forward/backward a few inches whenever needed. With that said, all my steels are single-body size.
In this pic you can see Jerry Brightman has a LKF on his steel.
http://www.tprior.com/J+T+S.jpg.jpg

[Robert Vince]

Thank you, Jerry, for your reply. Sorry I didn't acknowledge your reply sooner. I'm kinda there with you with regard to not wanting to wiggle around on my stool while I'm trying to play. Additionally, I'm not sure there is a need for that particular pull, as I can accomplish the same drop with half the other RKL (flatting the third with no pedals to make a minor) plus the other choices for minors. I'm going to post my copedent to see what other folks think some of the non-standard pulls are for. Some are more obvious than others.

[Robert Vince]

Pete, thank you for your reply; sorry I took so long to acknowledge it. My RKL nearest the front apron raises strings 1 & 2 to G# and E respectively while also lowering string 6 from G# to F#. When that lever is fully engaged, there is nothing for the second one (the one closer to me) to do, since 6 is already beyond the G to which the second lever drops string 6 when engaged. It seems to me that in order for the second lever to be of any use with this setup, it would have to be engaged first, dropping G# to G and then the RKL nearest the front would be able to drop string 6 from G to F#. As I mentioned in my reply to Jerry, half pedals and half levers are not all that uncommon and the second RKL is redundant. Let me know what you think.

[William Johnson]

OK, I have to ask . . . How on earth do y'all manage to control knee levers located all the way over to the front apron? Maybe I am too short and have fat legs, but it seems impossible to me.

Also, what is the musical logic behind the extra staggered levers? Is it for convenience or for the ability to play certain songs or scales? How do you activate the front apron levers without moving the back apron levers, or is it activated by default? Maybe that's the trick, the back apron levers are activated by default when you use the front apron levers, right?

Thanks,

[Paul Hoaglin]

This thread is very interesting to me, as I'm just preparing to add a front RKL to my MSA Classic D-10. I have wanted to try the 1st string whole-tone/2nd string semitone raise for a while, but I haven't been happy with the idea of combining it with the 6th string whole-tone lower, which is an indispensable change for me, so I'm splitting those up on separate levers (1st & 2nd raises on the "close" lever and 6th lower on the "far" or pedal side lever). Ideally, I would like to be able to activate the "feel stop" semitone raise of the 1st string up to G along with the 6th lower at certain times (especially when combined with the tuning split with the B pedal - it gives you a nice E minor in open position if you work judiciously around the 2nd & 3rd strings), and yet not at other times. I'm sure that lever placement will be critical, and a bit of scootching will be necessary. I'm excited to see if I can get it all set up to work the way I'm hoping. The "far" lever will only be as far away as right up against the E9 pullrods, so roughly in the "far middle" of the steel (the "near" one is already pretty much as close to the player side apron as is possible already without needlessly bending a bunch of C6 pullrods).

I figure it's okay to put any pulls on your guitar that you can manage (that being the sticking point!). If Buddy Cage can have 14 levers, I don't think six total is going too far overboard!

[John Billings]

Speaking of Brightman, here's a pic of the first steel I assembled for him at Performance. You hardly had to move at all to get to the "inside" lever.

[Mike Perlowin]

The first critical adjustment is to be able to completely engage RKL out without touching RKL in. This requires a lever with adjustable tilt OR the lever must be physically moved..

On my guitars, every time I use the RKL out, I also partially engage the RKL in. It is not a problem however because the RKL out lowers the 3 G# strings; (3, 6, and 10,) to F#, and the RKL in lowers string 11 from E to C#, an raises my 2nd string (which is tuned to C#,) to D#.

Many people think that the 3rd string can't be lowered a whole tone, but Jim Palenscar was able to do it. However, the lever now has a very long throw, and I can't avoid hitting the other when RKL I use it.

Incidentally, prior to doing the work, Jim told me I wasn't going to like the way it was going to feel, and he was right. I like the change, and I like having it on the 3rd string, but the long throw is awkward and uncomfortable. (Oh, how we suffer for our art. )

[William Johnson]

John, what brand PSG is the one in your undercarriage photo? It looks clean and very well made.

Thanks,

[John Billings]

It's a Performance guitar.It was the first one I assembled for Jerry Brightman. I was proud of it, so I took some pics! Excellent guitars! Great engineering. The reverser is a thing of beauty! Here's another guitar with staggered levers;