Sho-Bud 6140 Question

Daniel Warner · Post by **Daniel Warner** » 18 Jul 2011 7:35 am

Hi,

I'm a new member of the forum who recently bought a Sho-Bud 6140 with six pedals and one knee. Thanks to all of the excellent posts on the rack and barrel system on the SGF site, I have redone the undercarriage and it now stays in tune and sounds really good.

It,s setup as an E9 with the last three pedals unconnected. I would like to hear suggestions as to using the last three pedals. I read the post "E9th-4th pedal raises B to C# and G# to A" which sounds interesting. I'm curious about what other players might have done here.

Best regards,

Dan

Dana Blodgett · Post by **Dana Blodgett** » 18 Jul 2011 8:57 am

Hey Daniel, I bought a '73 ShoBud 6140 about a l'ill over a year and a half ago. The last 3 floor pedals were removed and two knee levers were added to raise and lower the E's. I later had Jim Palenscar add two more knee levers= RKL= F# to G(1&7) and RKR= D# to D/C#(2&9) (1/2 stop) Which is the older "Emmons" setup.
Do you have the "E's" raise and lower,if not they are pretty important and would suggest adding them as knee levers to what ever side you prefer. You probably have one knee lever set up to drop the D# to D and possibly on to C#.You might want the raise of the 1st and 7th string to either G or G# depending on what you prefer. You may want the 5 and 10 th string lower 1/2 step to Bb either as a vertical knee lever or maybe on the floor.There are many different things you could do.I am sure others will chime in here as to options.
I always thought that one day I would add three more floor pedals to achieve a 6+4(pedals&knees) although I haven't yet decided as to what changes I would add. Cost might be a factor as knee levers are at least $200 a pop these days, unless you can do your own additions. I prefer to have a "Professional" work on my old "Bud".

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 18 Jul 2011 9:14 am

The 6140 was sort of a strange bird...not sure exactly what Sho-Bud was thinking.
E9 with 6 pedals & one knee doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. You would think that the 6140 was designed for C6 - especially the older models that had the pedals closer to the center of the gtr - but it was shipped from the factory set up E9.
So....having more KL's installed is a good call if you're going to be playing E9.

I'm not sure, but I think the factory set up was pedal 4 raised E's to F, pedal 5 lowered 2nd string and pedal 6 lowered the B's.

Daniel Warner · Post by **Daniel Warner** » 18 Jul 2011 11:14 am

Hi,

Thanks for these two replies. I had read somewhere on this site that the 6140 was a C6th guitar that morphed. I was very curious about the E9th factory setup on the six pedals, so thanks for that info.

Michael Yahl · Post by **Michael Yahl** » 18 Jul 2011 1:14 pm

I'm going to inch out on that limb and hope that James Morehead backs me up, but according to the model listing compiled by Duane Becker at this site http://www.planet.eon.net/~gsimmons/shobud/models.html, the Model 6139 Single Neck 10 strings 3 pedals, 1 knee lever (factory configuration) and I would assume that it was an E9.
Models 6140 Single Neck 10 strings 6 pedals, no knee lever I figure were set up for C6 (factory configuration).

If this is indeed the case, then any S10 verified by the case tag, Gene Haugh data, or builders tag, sales slip, etc. which verifies it as a 6140 yet is set up as an E9, would have to be a conversion from a C6.

There is currently one on ebay which another forum member and I both believe to be a C6 although it is not stated as such.

There was one for sale by Geoff Cline http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... ght=shobud that i believe to be an good example of a factory, unmodified, 6140 C6.

In my spreadsheet of Sho-Bud numbers, out of 130 guitars logged in, there are only 2 verified 6140's. (This is JUST data, nothing more)

I'm thinking that these might be a bit on the rarer side.

So, I think that the only "morphing" was done by owners conversions and not factory design.

Daniel, this would explain the 3 pedals with no connections, also if your pedal group is more to the center of the guitar.

I also believe that all of these 6140's were rack and barrel. (If anyone has knowledge to the contrary, please let me know.) It was the end of the Baldwin Crossover era which already employed the rack and barrel system and sported the six pedals. I think that the six pedals setup lent itself nicely to the production of the S10 C6 (6140). Most all of them were produced from 1970-1973. The Pro I's came along in 1974 and that's when the 2 hole puller appeared. Admittedly, I have seen very few of the 6140's advertised, but they all seem to fall within that time frame and none outside of it. Yes, I'm making assumptions and we all know the first three letters of that word, but what the heck, I'm goin' for it!

Daniel and Dana, could you please send me the details on your guitars so that I can get it entered into my spreadsheet?

We only have 130 logged in out of thousands made. We are attempting to form a database of all the guitars since there seems to be a lot of questions about Sho-Buds.

Thanks

Michael

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 18 Jul 2011 1:48 pm

Michael,
My 6140, is a 1967 guitar. It left the factory with 6 pedals, and later had to have been modded to have two right knee levers. The serial number is from those that Shobud reserved for themselves. It does have a Baldwin decal at the keyhead end.
I'll post these pics. One shows the very early method of mounting the racks with cast aluminum parts that held three racks. Very early Crossover influence. The other pic shows the knee levers,one removed, that have the slightly more modern mounting method of using angle aluminum to mount the racks.
I bought it 30 years ago, in a second hand store. I had just gotten my Kline, so this guitar went into a closet for 30 years! Many of this model had volume and tone controls, plus the coil tap switch, mounted on the narrow back deck. Mine only has the tap switch.
Note the crazy aluminum sand castings;

Note that the levers use the later angle stock mounts;

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 18 Jul 2011 1:56 pm

Yeah...it makes total sense that it would be a C6 gtr.
But...the 6140 page from the '72 Bud catalog says,
"Set up with E9th chromatic tuning with 6 floor pedals".

Maybe they thought they'd sell more of them if they were E9. Whatever...they only made 6140's for a few years, so they must have figured out that they weren't going to sell very many.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 18 Jul 2011 2:02 pm

As mine is a Baldwin era guitar, I guess the 6140 moniker hadn't been invented yet.

Dana Blodgett · Post by **Dana Blodgett** » 18 Jul 2011 2:08 pm

Michael,I "assume" my ShoBud to be a Model # 6140 because I always thought that the ones with 6 floor pedals were set up as C6 ,no knee levers from factory. My floor pedals are anchored to the far left side of the pedal rack. It just looks as though it came from the factory that way.
I also "assumed" that the Model # 6139 came from the factory with three floor pedals and one knee lever. My 'Bud does not have volume and tone controls on the short step deck either. Input and pup switch are on right side plate where you would tune pedals and knee levers. Mine is rack and barrel.
I do have a brochure circa '73-'74 which shows a 6140 without the " professional" decal! I believe these to be early "professional" models even though they were not designated as such.
I also have a print-out from Music City Manufacturing Company from the same era that shows how to tune guitar and the copedant as E9 this was in the ShoBud instruction book when I bought my "Maverick" in '74...3 floor pedals and 1 KL, lowering the 2nd string and 8th to D and Eb respectively.
I was reading the brochure about the 6140 and it states that it is set up with E9th chromatic tuning with 6 floor pedals!? I always thought that they were set up as C6! My serial number on my 'bud is #4312. which at first I thought was a '74 but am inclined to believe it to possibly be a '73 now.
It seems there is not a lot of data to try and date these guitars. I am guessing that Sho Bud built some guitars slightly different than others as to use up parts ie. vol knobs, tone knobs on deck etc.
Yeah I think mine is a converted 6140 but I am not a 100% on that, any help would be appreciated as to dating this guitar and or the model #. My guitar also has the braided rope inlay on neck and front.These pics are from before adding two Kl's on the right by changer. Also on the right rear side plate the initials "J.Cox" has been inscribed !?

Daniel Warner · Post by **Daniel Warner** » 18 Jul 2011 2:20 pm

Hi Michael,

Yes, I will post some photos of it. The pedals are a bit more toward the middle. It also has volume and tone controls and a coil tap switch.

Dan

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 18 Jul 2011 2:29 pm

The volume and tone controls went away around '73...same with the tap switch being moved from the rear shelf to the endplate, so maybe yours is a '73 or early '74.
The sgl neck models never had a Professional decal even though they were unofficially known as a single neck Professional...although that name that may have shown up later.
Actually none of the sgl neck models had any decal, until the first gen Pro I's with barrels & two hole pullers.
Sho-Bud was always tinkering with their designs as they went along. Which, incidentally, I kinda see in the new Jacksons.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Dana Blodgett · Post by **Dana Blodgett** » 18 Jul 2011 2:42 pm

I read somwhere also that the vol and tone controls and switch were gone from the rear step deck by '74.The only models that I am aware of from that time period that had the "The Professional" decal were the double necks.

Daniel Warner · Post by **Daniel Warner** » 18 Jul 2011 2:47 pm

OK, Here are some photos of it. Dan

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 18 Jul 2011 2:53 pm

Wood wraparound changer. Later 60's guitar. Very much like mine.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Jul 2011 3:25 pm

My opinion only------------------------------------------------------Michael, Two hole pullers showed up at least in 1973, probably late '72-ish. Duane Becker sure has alot of valuable info. Shobuds are kinda like hotrod cars--fun to rebuild and mod. Right Michael?

If you bought a 6140 back in the day, You could have it setup the way that you thought would suit your music the best. Shobud probably wouldn't turn you away if you didn't want to use their copedant. Some of these early guitars(6140) would have had wood wrap-around necks, as they used up the Baldwin era parts. For instance, the 6140 would morph into the more common 6139 neck and changer housing as well as 6 pedals down to 3. At that time, there was alot of C6th still being played, and E9 was evolving. So you would see the copedants evolve along, as well. And yes, you might see 6140's with an E9th copedant.

There were, in the history of Shobud , what needs to be understood and accepted as transitional periods--no different than any manufactuers. Look at the auto industry. Some parts from an older model might appear on the next newer model being introduced, etc. Thus the cool mystic of Shobud. There is not a better looking guitar or better sounding guitar than the Shobuds. Shobuds have class and karisma. And the people that made these guitars had a part in history. I've not met nicer folks than the Jackson family. Thankyou Jacksons for building Shobuds.

It's fun to try to figure out these little nuances, but don't get frustrated if you come up short on the when, where and whys--it ain't important--it don't mean nothin' beyond fun trying to figure it out.

Bottom line, tune them up and play them and bask in the wonderful tone and karisma of these legendary guitars that left such an impact in our musical heritage. Enjoy.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Jul 2011 3:28 pm

Hey John Billings, your guitar would sound a little better if you'd put some strings on it.

Or are you into "air-steel"??

Michael Yahl · Post by **Michael Yahl** » 18 Jul 2011 3:31 pm

Well, as anyone who has ever been involved with a Sho-Bud knows, "THERE ARE NO RULES!" in the Sho-Bud Shell Game.

I have never seen a Sho-bud brochure of any sort and forgot that they can be a good source for piecing together information. I wasn't too far off in my guessimations. I just look at what evidence is in front of me and apply a little logic (which is obviously skewed at times).

I was hoping that this would spur some additional information, and this is all great! We can see some of the conflicting evidence.

Evidence would point us to assuming that they were all C6 yet Sho-Bud produced documentation of a 6 pedal E9? Did they ever actually make one? Who has one?

Daniel, I see evidence of the pedal stop holes on the inside of your front apron and holes corresponding to the rack placements. I'll say that it had 6 pedals at one time. How was it tuned??????? Who knows.
Dates put it right about, I'll say, 8/10/71. I have a verified (Gene Haugh) date of 8/3/71 for #1367.

Dana, verified dates for #4246 10/8/73 and #4349 10/26/73 would put yours maybe 10/20/73.

Folks, thanks for all your input! Lots of good info especially with the pics and brochure references.
I love stirring up things 'cuz it makes more info start oozing out! I don't mind being wrong at all....sometimes

I hope that Detective Morehead sees this and chimes in.

Wouldn't it be great if we were able to collect all of the brochures in one place and then really start to fill in some of the blanks?

I hope that this thread continues on and perhaps we can create the complete picture on these two models.

Michael Yahl · Post by **Michael Yahl** » 18 Jul 2011 3:32 pm

James must type faster than I do.......
We were writing at the same time and he beat me

Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 18 Jul 2011 3:34 pm

Deleted

Michael Yahl · Post by **Michael Yahl** » 18 Jul 2011 3:37 pm

Ain't that cool!

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 18 Jul 2011 4:13 pm

Ha Michael, beat ya!

That brochure is a little misleading. "Fingertip tuning attained by easily adjustable slotted knurled nuts." Hummm Knurled nuts for tuning would indicate a "Fingertip model". But the word "Slotted" would indicate allen head tuners. The guitar pictured would tune at the endplate with an allen wrench, the best that I can see. I've never seen knurled allen head tuners that just required you fingers to tune up.

Might just be a terminology thing from back in the '60's?

Michael Yahl · Post by **Michael Yahl** » 18 Jul 2011 4:27 pm

John, what is the S/N on yours? Never mind #7444 just found all 3 of your other entries. But I would like the colors on all of them.

I have a '67 Professional Pre-Professional?(minus any decal) D10 that was a R&B but the end plates are bent and the leg supports are welded in. Also no rails to support the decks. It has a S/N of 7644. I know that this is in your range as the information I've seen says that the #7xxx series was kept by Shot and David and predates the existing S/N Sequences.

Sorry Daniel, just gathering more data.

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 18 Jul 2011 10:57 pm

Here's the 6140 page from the '72 catalog.

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 19 Jul 2011 12:02 am

I know nuthin about ShoBuds but early Emmons S10's were 6 pedals as well .
I can't say if they came with any knee levers though , I'll bet someone knows .
Maybe knee levers weren't around till the 70's ?

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 19 Jul 2011 3:12 am

The '67, all Maple. The 59 Perm, Maple with black necks. The '63 Fingertip, Rosewood aprons and necks, Maple decks.

The '74, 3&6, Maple, stained.

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