Brand new to pedal steel.. Just as easy to learn Universal?

Hal Braun · Post by **Hal Braun** » 11 Jun 2011 6:25 pm

A brand new entrant into the art of pedal steel, so starting from ground zero!

So the D-10 in the case weighs 70 lbs.. little bit more than I want to hump around at my age, so I thought I would look for a lighter single neck, and I have to confess that in reading about universal tuning, where you can combine "2 into 1" so to speak.. rather than having to choose between C6 and E9 appeals to me, and a S-12 is pretty light comparatively.

Without stirring up any holy wars, is there any reason why someone brand new to steel should not start out learning universal tuning on one neck? I mean, it is not like I have to "unlearn" years of playing one tuning on one neck or another..

And, if there are any suggestions as to "which" universal tuning, especially one that gets to more of a "blues/blues-rock" preference, and any suggestions as to "mid level" 12 string guitars that don't have issues (and are light) would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

Thanks!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Jun 2011 6:36 pm

The only real consideration I can think of is whether you expect to be dependent upon lots of instructional material to get you going. There's a lot more available for E9 amd C6 than for Universal. On the other hand, if you're an experienced musician (from another instrument) with a good ear, at least a basic understanding of harmony/theory, and like to figure things out for yourself, then I can't think of any good reason not to go for a U-12 and save yourself some of the lugging.

p.s. I'll let some of the blues-rock oriented players confirm or refute this, but you might be well off with an extended E9 S-12 tuning anyway.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 11 Jun 2011 7:51 pm

I started on a u-12,[Zum] So many years ago I can't remember the names but I had two GREAT courses on the uni,A few years later I gave them to someone here on the forum,Check with Frency I think that's where I got them.My old mind is not like a beartrap anymore,more like a roach motel.YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Hal Braun · Post by **Hal Braun** » 11 Jun 2011 8:57 pm

Holy Buckets Charlie! I'll get right on that! Actually, it's kind of funny cause I had to learn to talk Minnesotan, since I am a Florida boy by birth and upbringing.. a Gator fan born in G'ville.. went to UofF, My Dad is sprinkled in a spring run near Dunnellon (he went to UofF) and all my relatives still live there.

Not enough forum room to explain why I ended up in MN., but needless to say when my son graduates High School next year.. I will be back south the following day.. y'all.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 11 Jun 2011 8:59 pm

(Just as a coincidental aside, I went to grad school at U of F in Gainesville. Lived there for 5 years).

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 12 Jun 2011 3:20 am

Hal...You may want to check the "Desert Rose" site, I believe that he manufactures a model that is specifically for the Blues/ Blues Rock player.

Larry Lorows · Post by **Larry Lorows** » 12 Jun 2011 4:43 am

I started out on a Sierra 14 string steel, but have since switched to a U12. It's the only way to go as far as I'm concerned. If you can find one, Jeff Newman's B6 course is what got me going on the 6th tuning. I have so many C6 courses that it is second nature for me to use them for U12. As Jim said above, I did play six string for twenty years before I started on steel, and I had a lot of theory lessons from my guitar teacher. You can have you universal pedals and still have your E9 pedals operating the lower strings, so you have the best of both worlds. Larry

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 12 Jun 2011 5:30 am

E9th courses and tab are fairly easy to adapt to Uni 12.
Top 8 strings are the same as E9th
To adapt C6th to B6th count your lowest string as 10.
With any steel guitar it is a good idea to have real person to talk to like a steel player / Teacher.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 12 Jun 2011 5:32 am

P.S. a Universal in split cases is a very good thing.
I have Kevin Hatton Cases and am very happy for that.

Hal Braun · Post by **Hal Braun** » 12 Jun 2011 5:36 am

Well.. it seems that a Sierra 14 with case weighs in around 60 - 65 lbs. Not exactly the huge weight savings I was hoping for. Any "lighter" single 12's you recommend? or do you all have large roadies (or large muscles) to hump the gear.. I thought my amp was heavy (actually it is, so I got a Savage Macht 12 that sounds great but is pretty light).

I know there is probably a trade off between "too light" with "no tone, less sturdy" but there has to be some middle ground?

Thanks for all your replies so far.. it still seems like the U-12 is an attractive option.. now for the guitar that went to the Jenny Craig class...

(I did email Kevin; and he says his split cases save a whopping 21 lbs over a single.. so that is also in play..)

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 12 Jun 2011 6:01 am

Williams S-12 narrow body or even SD-12 [single 12 neck on a double sized body], keyless tuners, 7pedals 5knees are in the neighborhood of 30 to 35# respectively. Plus whatever the case weighs, probably another 15-18#? If weight is your foremost consideration.

Also, recent Excel Uni 12 keyless, Carter Universal, or perhaps GFI.

A single body on any guitar will save a few lbs. over the aforementioned SD-12 and of course the more hardware [pedals, knees, pulls, etc.] installed, the greater the load factor.

Good Luck with your search and welcome to the forum and the world of the steel guitar.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 12 Jun 2011 8:39 am

Hal Braun wrote:Brand new to pedal steel.. Just as easy to learn Universal?

Playing 10 strings is certainly easier to learn than playing 12 strings. A single 10 string E9 neck would be much lighter than a Uni, and and you wouldn't run out of things to play/learn for a long time.

John LeMaster · Post by **John LeMaster** » 12 Jun 2011 8:52 am

I was going to say something similar to what Earnest said. Going from six strings to 10 strings is a big adjustment - and being able to strike precisely the strings you intend to strike. Looking down at 12 strings adds a little bit to that adjustment, IMHO.

Now, after saying that, I think a U-12 is still the best of all worlds, especially to get it in a small - not as heavy - package. I played U-12 for a number of years, but went back to D-10, mainly because I didn't want to engage a knee lever to get the 9th string "D". Sometimes, I still wish I had my U-12 Carter back - it was sweet.

John L.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 12 Jun 2011 8:56 am

I pretty much started on a U12 using the conventional wisdom expressed in this thread. After I got going I switched to a D10 and found that it suited me better. At this point I think a simple S10 E9 is the way to go when you are starting out. There is plenty of music in there. You will be busy forever with it. After you play a while you will see if you are drawn to more tunings and necks or a more comprehensive/complex single neck tuning.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 12 Jun 2011 9:13 am

Up to you, but I don't agree starting on a 10 string if the Uni 12 is your ultimate goal. Being a newbie, better to just bite the bullet to begin with and there won't be any re-learning grips, pedals, levers etc. JMO.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 12 Jun 2011 10:15 am

"blues/blues-rock"

You're gonna want that low root note when you're playing in the E9th mode. Specially in small bands. If I had known about Unis back in '72, I would've bought one instead of a D-10. Got my Kline in'84, and it only took me one day of woodshedding to get the hang of it. I was so happy that the bottom of the rhythm didn't disappear when the guitar player soloed. Really improved the sound of the band. Good bottleneck-style stuff down there too.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 12 Jun 2011 11:16 am

Well, Hal, I cut my steel teeth on a MSA Classic U-12, 7+5, and never had any problems paying whatever I wanted in E9th style. Later on I started learning C6th style stuff. Again, no problems.

Looking back, I really appreciate having done it that way because I can get any style I want on one neck. And a U-12 is lighter than a D-10.

Of course, if all you want to do is copy licks and read tablature (and that's just fine), a D-10 would be the easiest to learn on. I always preferred figuring things out myself...not always the easiest path to take, but it is very rewarding.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 12 Jun 2011 11:37 am

For whatever it's worth. I learned on a U-12.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 12 Jun 2011 1:11 pm

I'm sure some will disagree but I think starting on the uni would be just as easy as starting on a s-10 or d10. I started on a uni then later switched to a D-10. VERY STUPID on my part.Wish I still had my Zum uni back,STUPID,STUPID,STUPID.YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 12 Jun 2011 1:28 pm

Went from a single 10 and was considering a a D-10 then realized many players carried a D-10 and only played one neck.

Jeff Newman's universal 12 course was a determining factor in my choosing a U-12. Works for me...

Lenny

Benton Allen · Post by **Benton Allen** » 12 Jun 2011 1:53 pm

Hi Hal! Welcome to foray!!!

Check out BMI's 12 string offerings. They have one that's pretty tough, and only weighs 29 lbs. They can set'em up for any Co-Ped you like.

http://www.beckmusicalinstruments.com/1 ... teels.html

Cheers!
Benton

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 12 Jun 2011 2:37 pm

Instruction material for E9 and C6 is applicable to uni. Music is music,,,a specific scale is the same no matter which instrument it's played on,,,a uni equals 2 necks,,,or 3 necks or ??? necks,,,,all the notes are there.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 12 Jun 2011 9:41 pm

A word of caution. The E9/B6 tuning does not have a D string. Some of us (including me) get the note by lowering the 8th, other by raising the 9th,, and I've heard of others raising both the 9th and 10th to truly duplicate the 10 string E9 tuning.

But no matter how you get the D, it's a VERY important note. It's not just the 7th of the E chord.

The one drawback to learning on a U-12 that I can see is a possible tendency to overlook this or minimize it's importance and failure to learn all that it does.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 13 Jun 2011 5:58 am

Mike,,,YES,,,I stand guilty and convicted of that very thing,,,,There are just so many other 7th available that, as you say, we have a tendency to ignore that one. Maybe soon I will advance to seeing and using some other uses for that note,,,,,I am starting to see it as just one tuning,,,as opposed to "E9/B6",,and in that regard Zane King's tuning is looking better all the time.

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 13 Jun 2011 9:07 pm

I started on an E9/B6 uni-12. I now play a Bb6 uni-12, which I like a lot more for my purposes.

My MSA Studio Pro weighs about 35 - 40 lbs, just over 50 in the case.

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Brand new to pedal steel.. Just as easy to learn Universal?

Brand new to pedal steel.. Just as easy to learn Universal?

Re: Brand new to pedal steel.. Just as easy to learn Univer