How many knee levers do I really need?

admin · Post by **b0b** » 19 May 2011 9:56 pm

I think that 3 knee levers is enough. Playing with fewer than 3 is a challenge. I find that I need to use bar slants much more often if I don't have 3 knee levers.

Raise the E strings, lower the E strings, and lower the second string D# to D. Those are the 3 levers I'm talking about.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 May 2011 1:43 am

The great thing about Art, Music, colors , Piano's, Guitars etc ..we all start with the same reference but listening to all the music, seeing all the pictures etc, it would be difficult to come to that conclusion.

If 50 of us took a song like Buds Bounce and played it, we would probably have 50 versions, on the same Instrument, why would that be ? Why wouldn't they all be exactly the same ?

Our Instrument is an extension of our ability , talents ( should we have any ) etc, maybe we each see things differently. I know we hear things differently.

Some of us will see extended configurations as a big plus, others may not.Some of us see the benefit immediately some of us may not.

When we first view a fretboard, some of us look across, some of us look up and down. My opinion, if asking a question with regard to knee levers , pedals etc,, this is the stuff that allows creating music...maybe a very creative person is asking and a mildly creative person is answering or vice versa...

I received an excellent question last night from another forum member...and I will answer him directly..

"When playing in 5/8 mode, why can't I just slide back one fret and raise 8 with the F lever instead of staying put and lowering the 5 with the X lever"

And my answer is...

Sliding back one fret and raising 8 instead of lowering 5 is not the same . Mathematically it is but to the ears it is different. Coming to a note from underneath is not the same as coming to a note from above. It's a slightly different picture.

The sliding back a fret or using 8 raise or lower is only a piece of the music equation on 5 and 8...whats missing is the 5 lower ( x) , 5 natural and 5 raise (A ped ) .

I say do it both ways..have them both available.

I can't say whats right or wrong as there is no right or wrong, but I can say that when looking at the big picture, more pieces of the puzzle are in play when the X lever is included.

So with that.. we are back to, a few is good, a few more may be better ! It depends on the players approach.

t

PS, now remember, before some of us come to a conclusion that I think I am a grand master here, I am not...an extended configuration works for me , in the way I see the fretboard. About 10 years ago , my good friend, the late John Fabian gave me a 10 minute lesson on the use of the X lever...that 10 minutes changed what I did over the next 10 years . John told me to LOOK at the fretboard and visually understand what was going on..that was a great 10 minutes. It's like living in a town and being in traffic everyday until someone shows you another route home bypassing the traffic. The route was always there, we just never considered it. It's an option.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 May 2011 6:13 am

Now this is something I fully agree with...using the X lever is an adventure especially if using it along with another left knee lever or with AB peds...

Circus act comes to mind...

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 20 May 2011 7:25 am

Georg Sørtun wrote:
The only problems I have with adding X number of levers is that I am running out of knees....

You need my new invention: the Mike-A-Seat, with a built in sphincter lever. Just sit down and viola: another change at your disposal.

I’ll also be selling the levers without the seat for people who prefer to install them themselves.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 20 May 2011 5:47 pm

I was going to make a different suggestion as to what to use to work the additional knee lever, but it would probably get the topic closed.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 May 2011 10:16 pm

Alan, I once (25 years ago) drew a cartoon of a steel that incorporated your concept ( no player in the cartoon, just the steel!! ). It also included a trio of head levers on long arms; they would surround the player's head so you could press one forward with your forehead and press the other two by tilting your head right or left. Also two hip levers you could hit by an action like doing "the Bump" or the Conga. (I admit failing to conceive of the sphincter lever.)

I lost the drawing a long time ago, and anyway I can't draw very well. As it is, I make do with 9 knee levers on a D-10: E9--5 0n the left, 2 on the right, C6--2 on each knee. I can live with the paucity of C6 levers because I never play C6!

Robert Parent · Post by **Robert Parent** » 22 May 2011 4:52 am

Being this is a starter guitar I would say two knees will more than keep you busy until you move to something else. If you have the E's to F on one knee, and E's to Eb on the other one can easily play 90% of the stuff on the radio, maybe more.

This will be a $600.00 investment (not bad) and provide the tools to get a very good start. I started on an old Fender 1000 with a couple added knees for almost 4 years. I think investing any more in this setup is not cost effective.

Robert

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 22 May 2011 9:06 am

The Sho-Bud Crossover has six pedals and only one knee lever. I found that when playing mine I never used the one knee lever.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 22 May 2011 9:38 am

Both feet on the pedals, Alan? I had a Sho-Bud Crossover too, and that's how I played it. I did use the knee lever though.

I want to point out that not having the second string D# to D lower is a real handicap - more than not having the 4th string E to D# lower. The Sho-Bud Maverick lowered the 2nd and 8th strings on one lever. I think that's a good compromise if you have to make do with less than 3 knee levers.

The second string D note is used for a scale tone in several standard positions. It's an essential change, in my opinion. Without it, the top two strings are almost useless.

Jim Hollingsworth · Post by **Jim Hollingsworth** » 23 May 2011 9:31 am

It is best said ... you will always need "just one more....."

I have 9 & 9 and am looking for more space and more knees to operate the added changes!

Jim

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 23 May 2011 9:36 am

Jim Hollingsworth wrote:

I .... am looking for more space and more knees to operate the added changes!

Have you considered a wrist lever?

Larry Hutchison · Post by **Larry Hutchison** » 23 May 2011 1:40 pm

In my humble opinion: As many knee levers that will fit and more importantly that you will use. There's no sense having them hanging there for appearance.

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 23 May 2011 6:51 pm

I say you don't NEED any knee levers. But the more you have, the more stuff you can do more easily. I have 6 KLs but one of them is just for my C neck. I use the other 5 all the time.

Kerry Hutcherson · Post by **Kerry Hutcherson** » 25 May 2011 7:56 am

Thanks for initiating this discussion, Elliott, and thanks to everyone else for the thought-provoking comments. I strongly agree with the folks who emphasized that it's important to know what your musical goals are in order to know how many levers you need. However, it's sometimes hard to know what your long-term goals and needs might be when you are beginning to learn an instrument and haven't had a chance to figure out what you have before you can identify what you are missing (i.e., until you get a good idea of what your one lever can do by itself and in combination with the pedals, you won't know what it can't do and what you need another lever to do).

I've been playing a '70s Sierra "Timberwolf" 3X3 S-10 for about three years, and I've been wondering whether I should add levers for awhile. Before picking up the PSG, I played guitar, mandolin, and bass for about 15 years. One principle that I have followed with playing all of those instruments is start by learning as much as I can by using the most basic set-up for the instrument (meaning that I use whatever tuning is standard, and I stay away from using a bunch of effects or other bells and whistles). Then, when I feel like I've reached the point where I have become familiar with the instrument and what it can do in a standard set-up I usually start getting bored and uninspired from a songwriting standpoint. At that point I'll introduce a new tuning or a new effect or something that will get me out of my comfort zone and force me to further develop my technique and generate new ideas for licks, chords, and songs.

I applied the same approach to the PSG. I started out by mostly using the A and B pedals (Emmons set-up) and the lever that lowers both E strings one half-step. When I reached the point where I could play most of the licks and chords that I wanted to play that utilized those pedals and that lever (as well as come up with my own material), I started working on learning the C pedal and the lever that raises the E strings one half-step. I am still finding lots of new ways to cool licks and chord voicings by using just those three pedals and those two levers, but I've started dipping into using the third lever on my guitar which lowers the 9th and 2nd strings one half-step each. I'm just now getting to the point where I am really starting to feel like I have a good understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of my current set-up, and I'm also starting to identify certain licks and chords that I would like to be able to play with pedals and levers that I currently don't have.

As for whether you should add one or two levers to your current guitar or simply buy a new guitar with four or five levers, I think it would be useful for you to find a guitar with four of five levers that you can sit down and experiment with for a few hours (I don't know anything about the store in SD that you mentioned, but I bet the owner would let you try a few guitars for this purpose). If you've been playing long enough to start thinking "gee, it would be nice if I had a pedal or a lever that would do____" I bet you'll be able to determine whether you'll be content with just two or three levers or whether there are things that four or five levers can do for you that you will eventually want. Once you figure that out, I think economics will finish making your decision for you.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 25 May 2011 8:25 am

Elliott
The previous suggestion that you sit down behind an assortment of pro level steel guitars before deciding on whether to upgrade or not is a good suggestion.

One of the attractions of the various steel guitar shows around the country is the availability of a variety of guitars to sit behind, try out, and generally increase your familiarity with steel guitar.

Elliott Goldkind · Post by **Elliott Goldkind** » 25 May 2011 10:48 am

Echoing Kerry's post, I, too, am glad I asked this question, and really amazed at the volume, variety and quality of the discussions that followed. Thanks all!
El

Bill Howard · Post by **Bill Howard** » 25 May 2011 6:44 pm

Ralph Mooney had 5 floors 1 knee lever.
One of my favorite all time Steel rides is Ralph Mooney playing I threw away the rose on an Old M Haggard album.
Need wise I agree with b0b 3 minimum
2 for E's another for 1&7 a lot of people drop the second string with a knee lever I leave mine dropped all the time if you need E flat drop 4th string???. I had 5 knee levers for 24 yrs.
E's 1&7 my RR lever pulled 4th(e) to an F# brumley done this move I got used to this on an Old PP emmons I played in a Bar where this Guy would set it up play half a set then get drunk... And would say Play my Emmons... OK:). My vertical lowered 3&6 for minors, But when I only had 4 levers I found the same chord raising 7th string it also make a minor.
I think a lot of the newer players feel they need 9 or ten levers.... Many times I mentioned Wild Bill West he had some mini vise grips on an OLD Sho bud for k levers,He was some kind of great player!!,Also a Nice man who would talk Steel guitar and tell you road stories!!:) He could play a steel . Frank Arnett another older player He was also great...Well slap my face and hand me a Shaefers....
Are you sure Hank done it this away?

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 26 May 2011 6:21 am

All of them ..

Ben Lawson · Post by **Ben Lawson** » 26 May 2011 12:10 pm

My first steel (1970) had no knee levers when I got it. I had two put on by Ron Lashley and later two more. Gene O'Neal took that one off my hands when I bought a new one in '77.
Jimmy Crawford put mine together in his basement with 9 & 7. I said I didn't know what to do with all that but Jimmy said when I got used to it I wouldn't know what to do without it. He was right. I also have an MSA S12 with 3 & 4 and I do miss the extra changes when I use it.
"If you ain't got it, you cain't use it".