How many knee levers do I really need?

[Elliott Goldkind]

Hi all,

So I've got this Dekley, student model I believe. Got it from a friend for just $350. It seems to play and sound quite nicely and I'm loving learning how to play it, albeit slowly. (I'm an accomplished musician, just not on the pedal steel.) This Dekley has 3 pedals and just ONE knee lever.

As I'm starting to learn a few more things I'm starting to realize that it'd probably be nice to have more levers. I read lots of good things about North County Guitars, near San Diego (I'm in Los Angeles) so I called and asked if it was possible to add more levers. They said it was and that it would cost $200/lever.

So now I'm wondering what to do. On the one hand, I'm pretty happy with my current guitar and my slow-but-fun progress, but I have to wonder how much more fun, and how much easier it would be if I had at least one more lever. Also, the thought of paying $600 more for a guitar that originally cost me just $350 seems wrong to me. (I think I'd sooner just buy a new guitar?)

So, to all of you experts: should I have additional levers put on? If so, do I really want/need 3 (or 4) more, or is there just a second or third lever that's more necessary.

Thanks for all your help!
EG

[Kevin Hatton]

$200.00 per lever is too much to put into that guitar. If you want more levers I would just buy one with four already on it. In my opinion you will progress better with four knee levers. You don't have to learn them all at the same time, but they will be there when you are ready, and you will want them eventually. More important than that is if the guitar has accurate reurns and it has been lubed, adjusted, and gone though by a pro mechanic. Very important for a beginner.

[Bob Hoffnar]

$600 for a steel guitar is real cheap. Anything much better will cost you double that. Jim does great work.

[Jim Hollingsworth]

I agree with Bob - Jim Palenscar (Steel Gtrs of No. County) does great work. The reason for the higher cost is that Jim will have to make the parts from scratch whereas buying them on a new guitar is easy since the parts are mass produced & sit on the shelf. And most builders nowadays charge $150 to $200 per additional lever. That said, four is a good number of knee tho' five would be ideal!


Jim Hollingsworth

[Paul Sutherland]

I think the bare-bones minimum to play the E9 neck is three knees, as follows: lower Es a half tone, raise Es a half tone, and lower the second string D# a half tone.

With these three knee levers, and the standard 3 floor pedals, you can play a whole lot of music. I use these 3 levers far more than anything else on neck, and I could easily play gigs with such a set-up.

The next most important change for me is lowering the fifth string B a half tone. This can be either a vertical or a horizontal lever.

[Mike Perlowin]

You need 4 knee levers, 3 more than you've got. And at $200 each, plus the $360 you have in the guitar already, you'll have a total on $950 invested.

That's a good price for a Dekley pro steel. But the fact that it has only one knee lever means it might be a student model.

You should take it to Jim and let him look at it. Besides doing great work, Jim is also scrupulously honest. He will tell you whether or not the guitar is worth upgrading.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

i agree w: Paul S on those 3 main levers
the vertical lever (B to Bb) imo is quite useful
then the lever that raises string 1 F# to G &/or G# along w: string 2 Eb to E & string 7 F# to G &/or G#
some prefer the G# to F# lower on string 6
all in all 5 levers is the standard nowadays

[Herb Steiner]

I agree with Kevin Hatton. Unless you really love this particular guitar, the numbers don't work to your advantage.

For sure, Jim Palenscar does excellent work, amongst the best I've seen. But you will still have almost a grand into a basically outdated student model guitar from a defunct company. You will have a difficult time recouping your expense.

My personal, unsolicited , recommendation would be to sell or trade the Dekley and use the proceeds to get a professional grade S10 already in plug-and-play condition. The money you spend now will be paying you back later should you ever want to upgrade again.

I'm sure Jim has appropriate guitars in his shop that would fit the bill for you reasonably.

[chris ivey]

..or just add one lever raising e's to f...that give youa bunch of stuff to work on for the next year or so.

[Larry Bell]

How many knee levers do I really need?

I know how many I need.

No clue how many you need.

You see some great players with 3. You see other great players with 10 or more.

4 or 5 on E9 is pretty standard, for a beginner, since most instructional material is geared for 3 and 4 or 3 and 5.

[Elliott Goldkind]

OK, I think I have enough opinions here/now ... to be completely as undecided and confused as I was before I started this thread. Just kidding. I really appreciate everyone's advice and I'll try to figure out what to do. Most probably take a little trip down the 5 (towards San Diego) and let Jim do the thinking for me. I think the problem is that I really do love my guitar, but that might be because it's the only psg I've ever played. Be this all as it may, these are quality problems, right?

Again, many thanks.
El
p.s. even if I'm putting a bow on this topic, feel free to keep making suggestions, obviously. thx.

[Jerry Overstreet]

I agree with some others about not investing a huge sum in this one if it's a student model. Otherwise, and if you really love the way it plays and sounds, I might be inclined to follow chris' suggestion to add the E to F raise for now.

You can play a lot of stuff with 2 levers, [both E's to Eb lower and E's to F raise] and 3 pedals. FI, lightning quick Little Rock Getaway will play just fine with this combo.
You can play professionally on slow ballads and fast tunes using just these changes with a thorough knowledge of your guitar's tuning and fretboard. Rock and blues stuff as well.... with or without changers.

Keep in mind that any replacement or upgrade parts will likely have to be custom done, but there are many good SG techs around so it's not a dead end.

Best of luck. Since you are in proximity to Jim P.'s place, I ditto making a trip to let him see and evaluate your guitar's mechanical capability.

[Pete Burak]

One thing you could do and it wouldn't cost you anything...
You could move the A and B pedals to the B and C position, and make the A pedal your F lever.
A pedal raises E's to F.
You would have A+F on the first two pedals.
A+B on the second two pedals.
And E to Eb on the lever.
You could make it a 2x2 by taking the A pedal (and rod) completely off, and make an F knee-lever by simply attatching a pair of vice grips to the cross rod (or maybe a Left Handed Monkey Wrench ).
I once had a Fender 400 with only 4 pedals, and I set it up like this, with the A and B pedals in the middle, and E raises/lowers on pedals 1 and 4.
"...and it didn't cost a gawd darn dime..." as the song goes.

[Frank Freniere]

3.

[Tony Prior]

How many chord and fretboard positions do you need to know to become a rounded guitar player ?

[CrowBear Schmitt]

would 5 do Tony ?

[Tony Prior]

would 5 do Tony ?

Well it's not for me to say...

5 is good for some

4 is good for some

3 is good for some

2 is good for some

1 can even be good....

What are the long term goals of the player ?

I believe it's important to know who's asking the question and more important, who's answering the question . If someone is answering that only uses 4 and does not use the X lever which is generally #5, they will answer 4...but if you ask someone who routinely uses 5 they will answer 5... if someone is very comfortable with and routinely uses 3, they will answer 3.


"what are the long term goals of the player asking the question "...

My answer is load up, 5, even 6 if you can figure out where to put it . I currently raise 7 and also now want to lower 6 on a lever, not on a pedal, so I am thinking about where to add the 6th... Once a player becomes connected with the B to Bb ( X ) and using strings 5 and 8 as a primary grip for melody or phrasing, they may feel limited with 4 . Playing phrases and positions is now different to accomplish the same thing. Also keep in mind that when you start playing in new ( redundant) positions, OTHER things open up, the fretboard changes again.

Guitar players are supposed to play ACROSS the neck ,sure they can play up the neck to achieve the same phrasing but we are exerting extra energy ( and thought) by doing that. Some guitar players play with 3 fingers on the fretboard, some play with 4. Some Steel players like 3 or 4 levers, others like 5 or perhaps more...the concept is exactly the same.

And no, I am not a pro and I do not profess to be but I can offer insight on how to unlock the power of 5 levers to anyone in a short time, come on over . Once this is understood,and if you only have 4 levers on your Steel, you will gladly pay for the 5th . $200 would be a cheap price to pay for another "power" of knowledge which will last a lifetime.

Just me thinkin' out loud..playing and learning instruments is a lifetime adventure.

I do scratch my head when I read "
X amount of levers is all I'll ever need " or "nobody needs more than 30 watts" or "nobody needs more than a Nashville 112"...

It's not my call but if someone is going to grow, well then .....

It's kinda like some dude telling me I don't need a Suburban , all I need is a Smart car. Well tell that to the 12 foot trailer. Goal or purpose defines the need.

[Roger Rettig]

Good post, Tony - I agree in general principal.

When I started (early '70s) I had '3 and 1' on my ZB Student guitar. I will say that having such a minimal set-up (although it didn't seem minimal at the time!!!) made me search around the neck to get some chords I heard in my head. As a consequence I think I came to more-fully understand the tuning faster than I might have done had I had four knee-levers.

For me these days it's '3 and 4', with lowering and raising the Es in equal 1st position of importance, lowering the Bs in 3rd place, and lowering 2 and 9 bringing up the rear.

But that's just me.

(Having said that, my 'main' guitar has four pedals and six 'knees' on E9; some of them are rarely used - the extras are just fun and are apt to be changed around as the mood takes me.)

[Jim Cohen]

Didn't Bobbe Seymour, a few years ago, put out a video with just one special pedal (the Z-pedal) that gave him loads of possibilities? Or was it just 2 pedals...?

[CrowBear Schmitt]

Tony, i understood your question to be "how many positions of one chord makes one an accomplished player ?"
my reply suggested 5 diff positions/voicings for that one chord
sorry if i misunderstood

i, like many, have 5 levers on E9
since i concentrate on chords first, each one of those levers help me accomplish/make the chord
& that's what i lock/use my levers for before anything else
then i study their funktions according to scales & assimilate/use them
the levers i have - i use - they are not idle

[Roual Ranes]

Listen to Herb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Roger Rettig]

To the exclusion of everyone else?

[Alan Brookes]

How many knee levers do you need ?

How many knees do you have ?

[Tony Prior]

Tony, i understood your question to be "how many positions of one chord makes one an accomplished player ?"

Hey Crowbear ,yes we are disconnected ! 5 is pretty good ! More is better... I've been making a band stand career with 4 or 5 so with some inversions as well. I think of knee levers in the same manner. But then when you see players like Joe Pass..5 seems like 1 knee lever !