Tempered Tuning versus Just Intonation

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 26 Mar 2011 4:27 pm

When I first began playing the pedal guitar, I just tuned everything straight up. It sounded fine to me. Tuning some notes high and others low using methods like the one Jeff Newman espoused seems to make the guitar sound better to other people's ears when I play in a group. But I think it sounds terrible. There was a thread about this, I think with the same name as mine, awhile back. But I can't find it.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 26 Mar 2011 4:58 pm

There are many threads about temperament here. Sturgeon's Law applies! I recommend that you read about it elsewhere on the Internet (Wikipedia etc), and spend lots of time experimenting on your steel guitar until you find what you like.

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 26 Mar 2011 6:43 pm

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Click Here

Jason Hull · Post by **Jason Hull** » 27 Mar 2011 1:41 am

Oh no! Not this again!

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 27 Mar 2011 7:42 am

Well, I think my guitar sounds more like it does now than it did before.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 27 Mar 2011 9:08 am

I think it's worth mentioning that Edward plays C6th exclusively. Equal temperament does sound better on C6th than on E9th. I don't really know why.

The problem I have with equal temperament is that when any of your thirds drift slightly sharp it sounds horrible. Similarly, if you tune to just intonation and any of your thirds drift slightly flat, it sounds horrible. Neither option is fault tolerant with regards to external forces (neck tension, cabinet drop, axle stress, temperature changes, etc.).

ET theory says that thirds should be tuned to exactly 400 cents. JI theory says that thirds should be tuned to exactly 386.3 cents. If your thirds are tuned anywhere between those extremes, almost everyone will hear it as "in tune".

On my C6th and D6th copedents, I tune my thirds to 390 cents because it's in that range, it's fault tolerant and it's easy to see on my meter. I use meantone temperament, following the basic theory described on this page:

http://b0b.com/infoedu/WellTemperedC6th.html

There are many degrees of meantone, depending on the size of the 5th interval used for the calculations. Equal temperament itself is a special case of meantone, one in which all of the possibilities resolve into exactly 12 notes. I can endure ET on instruments that require it (like my marimba), but I really do prefer purer harmonies whenever they are possible.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 28 Mar 2011 2:29 am

If you've got a full load of pedals and knees, and use them in a manner that any of the bottom 3 (or 4) strings are providing the root, you're stuck with ET, really. There's no way to "sweeten" something that doesn't sour something else - I tried b0b's tuning above and it sounded awful. I tracked it down to one combination that was 16 cents off; I don't remember which one, but I'm not about to repeat that!

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 28 Mar 2011 7:12 am

David Mason wrote:I tried b0b's tuning above and it sounded awful. I tracked it down to one combination that was 16 cents off;

There's nothing in b0b's meantone that is "off" by anywhere near that much. Is it possible that you were trying to use an augmented 2nd as a 3rd, or similar?

Jeremy Craft · Post by **Jeremy Craft** » 28 Mar 2011 8:15 am

When I'm practicing by myself, I like to use JI because it sounds sweeter. If I'm playing with fiddles and upright bass, I stick with JI because the other instruments are capable of adjusting their intonation to JI.

However, when I'm playing with guitars and/or piano, I use ET because those instruments are tuned with ET.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 2 Apr 2011 11:55 am

Thanks for all of y'all's replies. As in so many other things with steel guitar, the answer seems to be trial and error. I guess I'll have to keep researching and plugging along.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 2 Apr 2011 12:09 pm

b0b wrote:I think it's worth mentioning that Edward plays C6th exclusively. Equal temperament does sound better on C6th than on E9th. I don't really know why.

The problem I have with equal temperament is that when any of your thirds drift slightly sharp it sounds horrible. Similarly, if you tune to just intonation and any of your thirds drift slightly flat, it sounds horrible. Neither option is fault tolerant with regards to external forces (neck tension, cabinet drop, axle stress, temperature changes, etc.).

ET theory says that thirds should be tuned to exactly 400 cents. JI theory says that thirds should be tuned to exactly 386.3 cents. If your thirds are tuned anywhere between those extremes, almost everyone will hear it as "in tune".

On my C6th and D6th copedents, I tune my thirds to 390 cents because it's in that range, it's fault tolerant and it's easy to see on my meter. I use meantone temperament, following the basic theory described on this page:

http://b0b.com/infoedu/WellTemperedC6th.html

There are many degrees of meantone, depending on the size of the 5th interval used for the calculations. Equal temperament itself is a special case of meantone, one in which all of the possibilities resolve into exactly 12 notes. I can endure ET on instruments that require it (like my marimba), but I really do prefer purer harmonies whenever they are possible.

That's a good page. It always helps me to understand the theories behind the various practices. And actually, I'm making some progress. There are still a couple of changes, though, that I just can't get to sound right.

And I had noticed that even without other instruments present, some frets sound righter played high, others low and still others right on. So much for the mathematics of music.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Apr 2011 3:47 pm

after 40 years, i have settled on 'just kinda tuned' which honestly works best for me.

Jim Hollingsworth · Post by **Jim Hollingsworth** » 4 Apr 2011 6:21 pm

I use Bob's tempered C6th on both of my guitars and find it works quite well - even with piano or guitar. As long as I pay attention to bar intonation I am golden - thanks Bob!!!!!!!!!

Jim

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 5 Apr 2011 3:55 am

Andy Sandoval wrote:This is just the tip of the iceberg. Click Here

Good one Andy. I tuned my 'bud to that, but the guitar lost that warm vibe.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Apr 2011 5:58 pm

Well, you are always going to be playing to your ears.

Whatever your tuning method, you have to give it long enough for your internal computer and your reflexes to adjust to it. And for (them) to (adjust to) the instruments you are playing with (at any given time). Sometimes to a sharp guitar, or a flat vocal. Either way, you're constantly adjusting your tuning while you play. It's just the nature of the beast.

I've always found that "straight up" seems to mesh the best with other instruments that tune that way.

After thirty some years of it, I"m kind of used to whatever adjustments I might make for whatever reasons.

Others' MMV of course.

EJL

Edited for corrections...

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 6 Apr 2011 3:08 am

Good answer Eric
Hook

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Tempered Tuning versus Just Intonation

Tempered Tuning versus Just Intonation

Which tuning system to use depends....

Bob's C6th ...