Tuning the F position

Bill Bertinot · Post by **Bill Bertinot** » 26 Mar 2011 8:50 am

I am sure this topic has been covered a few hundred times; so if there's a link I can be referred to, that would be great.

I wanted to know what are some of the ways to tune or play, so that a major chord in the F position isn't flat, or I don't have to play 1/8 of a fret sharp.

I've tried a few different temperd tunings, but none that I've settled on. Is this the only way to go? Is this what most players do? It all seems to revolve around the B string in the C# position,

The C# to be in tune as the 3rd of an A chord is about 17 cents flat, but that same C# now as the 1st of a C# chord, makes the chord just that flat, and I tune my Fs just that much more flat to be in tune with the C# chord. Sort of like chasing your tail. I understand that our scale isn't "in tune" with itself, piano tuners have it worked out, I have it worked out for guitar, but not for steel.

HELP!

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 26 Mar 2011 9:27 am

Bill, I've tried tweezing it a million ways over the years, and for me I have to tune the E-F raise very flat (as it is on many tuning charts, Peterson presets, etc.) and play the "C#" chord (or A&F pedals chord) sharp to be in tune. Aside from playing open, it's not really a problem.
For the life of me, I've never been able to figure out how the guys who tune "straight up" deal with it.

Pat Comeau · Post by **Pat Comeau** » 26 Mar 2011 9:36 am

Alot as to do with the amount of cabinet drop and the gauge of the 6th string if you don't have split tuners on the changer, try a 20p for the 6th and use your ears to match the 4th & 8th strings to the 6th as close as you can with A pedal and F lever engage.

Pat C

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 26 Mar 2011 9:52 am

Basically the F is flat because the root of the chord is flat. C# is the 3rd of the AB down A chord. If you tune your 3rds 10 cents flat compared to the root of a given chord the F will be 20 cents flat of 440.
Cabinet drop may or may not make it worse, but it will always be flat if you tune JI.

edit. Oops, Bill, you said that already....

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 26 Mar 2011 9:57 am

having my Es & Bs at 440, i tune the Fs to 432 & my C#s at 436
your mileage may vary
tuning by harmonics :
- lever F & A&B engaged : ref note : string 5 fret 4 - tune string 4 fret 5
- lever F engaged : ref note : string 4 fret 12 - tune : string 8 fret 5

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 26 Mar 2011 10:22 am

As Olli said, it will always be flat if you temper tune. Unavoidable.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 26 Mar 2011 10:56 am

What's wrong with aiming sharp? You really don't need to have the C# chord in tune on open strings.

I tune my thirds 10 cents flat. Since the E# is the third of C#, which is the third of A (440 Hz), the E# (F lever) is tuned 20 cents flat. That's 1/5 of a fret. So I always aim high with the bar when I use that lever. No problem - it sounds in tune.

The fret lines are just visual guides. They show you where the equally tempered notes would be. My guitar isn't tuned to equal temperament, so I adjust my bar position accordingly.

Orchestral string players don't have fret lines, so they don't have to explain why they place their fingers where they do. They just play the notes in tune with the other instruments. Our visual reference helps, but I've never had anyone complain that I wasn't playing exactly on the fret line when it sounds in tune.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 26 Mar 2011 1:04 pm

Since the E# is the third of C#, which is the third of A (440 Hz), the E# (F lever)

Dang B0B. E#...F lever. Now I'm totally cornfoosed.

But seriously, I have also tried many approaches over the years, and keep coming back to tuning the F (E#) really flat. I just aim high on that change so it's in tune.

Does anyone else notice that they slant the bar just a tad when using the F lever to get the Augmented chord with A & B pedal, or the Diminished with no pedals? I really just noticed that recently. I don't think I was trying to do it on purpose. I've never seen anyone comment on these uses of the F lever and the tuning issues.

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 26 Mar 2011 2:42 pm

What Bob said.

Whip Lashaway · Post by **Whip Lashaway** » 26 Mar 2011 4:01 pm

Tooshay Bob "I've never had anyone complain that I wasn't playing exactly on the fret line when it sounds in tune." Nuff said!

Bill Bertinot · Post by **Bill Bertinot** » 26 Mar 2011 7:38 pm

Thanks everyone, it was good to have all your viewpoints.

CrowBear and b0b, I will try out those suggestions on amount of cents flat suggested.

It seems the general consensus is to "play it so its in tune"; use a little tempering- depending on the amount of cabinet drop on that particular steel - and use the fret markers more as a visual guide.

You really put it in perspective, bOb, when you said: "Orchestral string players don't have fret lines, so they don't have to explain why they place their fingers where they do. They just play the notes in tune with the other instruments. Our visual reference helps, but I've never had anyone complain that I wasn't playing exactly on the fret line when it sounds in tune"

Yes, what he said!

admin · Post by **b0b** » 26 Mar 2011 9:45 pm

Here's a page that you might find useful, Bill:

Just Intonation for E9 Pedal Steel

I've recently updated it with a table of the theoretical tuning values. Your milage may vary, of course.

Bill Bertinot · Post by **Bill Bertinot** » 26 Mar 2011 10:11 pm

Great Chart! Good to know a standard.

Thanks bOb.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 26 Mar 2011 10:20 pm

Well, I wouldn't call it a standard, Bill. It's a starting point. In actual practice, every guitar is slightly different and players develop their own tweaks and quirks to play them in tune. The idealized math breaks down quickly when confronted with the physical properties of wood and metal.

Math can only take you so far. Your ears should be your ultimate guide.

Bill Bertinot · Post by **Bill Bertinot** » 26 Mar 2011 11:22 pm

Great Chart! Good to know a standard.

Thanks bOb.

Jesse Leite · Post by **Jesse Leite** » 31 Mar 2011 10:08 am

b0b wrote:I tune my thirds 10 cents flat. Since the E# is the third of C#, which is the third of A (440 Hz), the E# (F lever) is tuned 20 cents flat. That's 1/5 of a fret. So I always aim high with the bar when I use that lever. No problem - it sounds in tune.

I tune and play exactly the same way. If you tune your 3rds 10 cents flat (or 10 cents sharp for the minor triads), then you have no choice but to compensate with your bar a little. You can compensate a little by tuning your E and B strings (the root and fifth of your open chord) a little sharp, then by the time you factor in cabinet drop and your super flat A+LKL (or A+F lever) chord, your third won't be as flat, so it won't require as much compensation. I tune my open E and B strings about +8 cents compared to equal tempered E's and B's... then from there tune the rest of the guitar to those open E's and B's, keeping the major 3rds 10 cents flat, and the minor thirds 10 cents sharp. Sure, now your open chord is slightly sharp, but now that A+LKL chord is not as flat as it was. I find this keeps the chords across my neck more centered around the fret. It seems many "sweetened" tuning charts do the same - they start with the open E's and B's a little sharp to start with. By doing this, almost every chord will be close enough to the fret that you won't feel the need to compensate ...except a little bit for the LKL (F change); there's just no way around it.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 31 Mar 2011 11:55 am

Unless you want to tune equal temperament, listen to b0b here. It really bugged me initially tuning that E=>F change so flat and aiming so high on the A+F combination, but it works if you develop your ears and your eye-ear-hand coordination to make the adjustments. It may not work for all situations, but it sure is good for classic country music with lots of triadic harmony.

I was not accepting that this could work at first - I came out of a piano (early) and guitar (previous 35+ years) background, and this is not really relevant there. In fact, it takes some time to convince many guitarists that they should not tune purely by matching exact harmonics. This was the thread that finally pushed me over the edge - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/010572-3.html. Literally and truly, I really think playing a pedal steel using JI and getting things to work out is a major paradigm shift for many people. It sure was for me, but I'm glad I listened and hung in there long enough to see if I could make it work.

BTW - one outcome of having to aim A+F so sharp is that A+F is pretty flat at the nut, and there's the effect of cabinet drop. One way to deal with this is to shift the tuning up. Many good players argue to shift the whole thing up 2 Hz or 8 cents, and that works fine for me. I don't worry about it being perfectly 8 cents up, but my roots are a bit sharp and then I tune by ear.

We're more or less afraid to seriously discuss this topic now because it gets emotionally-charged with, "My way is the right way to do it", "Oh, no, you're full of it, my way is right", which frequently degenerates to, "Ya' mudda' wears army boots", and "Same to youze, ya' wanna' go mix it up outside?!", and so on. But I still think it is still useful to discuss intonation and playing in tune for people who don't yet understand the myriad of issues, but do it in a constructive way. It actually is a complex topic - musicians have been dealing with it for centuries, and there's no absolute answer for every situation.

Jesse Leite · Post by **Jesse Leite** » 31 Mar 2011 2:30 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:...Many good players argue to shift the whole thing up 2 Hz or 8 cents, and that works fine for me. I don't worry about it being perfectly 8 cents up, but my roots are a bit sharp and then I tune by ear.

As mentioned above I do the whole thing up 8 cents too, but I've been told that this number is not that crucial because the idea of tuning the whole steel up 8 cents (give or take) is to get the flatter chords closer to the fret. This means some chords will play out a bit sharp (like open chord), and some will play out a bit flat (the A+LKL will still be flat, but not as flat). Looking at the big picture, your chords as a whole will average out closer to the frets. Bob's JI tuning article mentions that some players like to tune the whole steel anywhere from 5 to 10 cents sharp for that reason. Important thing to realize is that there is no right answer here! Tuning the whole steel up 8 cents is working great for me. When I play to a CD, I feel that I can always play right on the fret and it will sound great to my ears. The only chord I consciously compensate is that super-flat A+LKL (A+F) chord. Just my experience.

Dave Mudgett wrote:We're more or less afraid to seriously discuss this topic now because it gets emotionally-charged with, "My way is the right way to do it", "Oh, no, you're full of it, my way is right", which frequently degenerates to, "Ya' mudda' wears army boots", and "Same to youze, ya' wanna' go mix it up outside?!", and so on. But I still think it is still useful to discuss intonation and playing in tune for people who don't yet understand the myriad of issues, but do it in a constructive way. It actually is a complex topic - musicians have been dealing with it for centuries, and there's no absolute answer for every situation.

Well said

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 31 Mar 2011 6:21 pm

Unless you're one of those folks who just can't live without having their 3rds flatter than a pancake, tune straight up and solve almost all your tuning problems.
Also cuts your tuning time about 90%.

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 31 Mar 2011 7:28 pm

Hey Bo,
Ya Mudda Wears Army Boots!

Skip Edwards · Post by **Skip Edwards** » 31 Mar 2011 7:50 pm

Since the G# is tuned slightly flat in the open position, as the 3rd, it needs to be tweaked up a hair to be in tune as the 5th in the AF position. At least, to my ears it does...

With my rack and barrel Bud I put a "micropull" on the 6th string, activated by the F lever. It kicks in at the very end of the lever's travel, and you really don't feel it at all.
That simple solution is one of the cool things about a rack and barrel Bud...easy to do that sort of thing.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 31 Mar 2011 8:19 pm

Ron Pruter wrote:Hey Bo,
Ya Mudda Wears Army Boots!

Ron my mother sang and played a T-60 and I don't think anyone ever would say anything even if she wore combat boots because anybody that would strap one of those heavy monsters on their shoulder and walk around you didn't want to mess with. It is a pre-patient Peavey and I still have it.

John Gould · Post by **John Gould** » 31 Mar 2011 9:28 pm

With my trusty old Korg WT-10 tuner I just tune the b's the e's and the g's straight up 440 with the dial set to E that seems to give me the right temper for those stings. I set the tuner dial for A to set the raise on the B's and G#'s and to tune the F#'s with no raise. It has worked for several steels over the years tune the rest by ear from those being in tune.
Every once in a while I check the calibration of the tuner with a pitch fork or a frequency counter. I write down the real settings for each string for the particular steel so I can reproduce it with another tuner. And every steel has been a little different. I've had a couple of different Sho-Buds a couple of different Dekley's and Emmons. They have all been a tiny bit different.

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 1 Apr 2011 7:52 pm

I just tune sympathetically the raised forth string to the open third string so it sounds in tune. Works for me anyways.

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One most everything else is in tune