Playing what is on the original recording

Bobby Hearn · Post by **Bobby Hearn** » 18 Mar 2011 3:23 pm

I have to learn everything note for note because I have no imagination or creative ability.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 18 Mar 2011 3:31 pm

That's the standard excuse for people who aren't professional enough to learn their parts. Try that in a Nashville road band and your fired.

Bobby Hearn · Post by **Bobby Hearn** » 18 Mar 2011 3:33 pm

NO! YOU'RE FIRED BUDDY! By the way, I was kidding and I seriously doubt you know anything of playing in a Nashville road band.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 18 Mar 2011 3:35 pm

Good luck playing for a professional name act. Typical. Go see someone like George Strait or Garth Brooks. Those players are world class capable of playing jazz. They are prfessional enough to play the hit. Try that there and your gone. Good arrangements even on a local level always win out over interpetation.

Bobby Hearn · Post by **Bobby Hearn** » 18 Mar 2011 3:40 pm

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 18 Mar 2011 4:09 pm

Here's another aspect of playing it like the original-the key.I think it sounds wrong if a cover isn't played in the same key as the original.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 19 Mar 2011 3:17 am

At first I tried to learn the solos and all the fills like the records but then the more I played the more it seemed nobody ever played those parts that close so I just play the parts pretty close if I like them but if not then I stick with melody or just improvise. Lately I've got to where I play most of the Mooney stuff like he did as I think it's hard to beat what he did on the old Haggard stuff like The Bottle Let me Down or Swingin Doors. Now if it gets into exptednded solos then it's every man for himself. The group I work with most is more Outlaw country than anything so Mooney has played on a lot of the stuff we do either Waylon or Haggard. It makes my job a lot more fun than most I do.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 19 Mar 2011 3:55 am

Ok this is gonna be harsh...

Instead of babbling on about who's gonna be fired and who's not, lets understand that a seasoned, properly practicing player at some point should be able to do both. Play the song as it is and interpret.

Singers do not make up new words do they ? Solo instrumentalists should be able to play the song and ad-lib, both, Country and Western...even in the same song. They should be able to play the melody/signature lines which is more important than the add lib lines. When we play Together Again or Sleepwalk, do you play your own thing or make it up, because if you make it up as you go along you are playing the Steel not the song.

Regarding getting fired in NVILLE, they would never get hired if they couldn't play so put all that away. The stage rehearsal show will dictate what gets played just like any good road or show band, of course the typical lower level road or show band may have a bit more freedom of expression, maybe...

and who cares if those cats can play Jazz, so can I...it's not about that , it's always about playing whats required, low level local band or big time Garth band, it's all the same, play whats required for the gig, ....if you can....

I too have played with countless players who don't play any melody or signature lines, mostly because they can't. They have never practiced in that mode and in many cases have no idea what all those levers do and how to apply the pulls...Some can't even tell us what the chord chart is..whats that tell you..

So they improvise over the top...and tell us they are playing add-lib, what they are really telling you is they don't actually know the song.

Best to know your instrument , be well practiced and play whats required...how easy is that !

Me, I'm a professional internet reader...sometimes I read threads where someone is asking how to use the 2nd string lower and then a month later that same player is advertising that they are in a touring show band covering tunes from 4 decades, I love it ! It's a hard life being a professional internet reader but someone has to do it !
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Butch Pytko · Post by **Butch Pytko** » 19 Mar 2011 8:55 am

My feeling as a local steel player has always been to learn the parts as close as possible. To this day I still have this craving to see what a steel player is doing on a recording! I know it has helped me learn in a positive way. As I look back, I think I only got positive comments from band members, usually--"Wow, you played it just like the record!" But, for a number of years I've tried not to play fast single note runs exactly as certain artists played, as it can drive me absolutely NUTS trying to match every note. I just figure-out where they are in the progression & do my own thing.

This brings to mind an account I witnessed at one of Buddy Emmons' concerts back when he was touring the country in the 80's. I lived in Houston at the time & at one of his concerts there during a question & answer period, some guy called out, "Can you play the kick-off for--Don't you ever get tired of hurting me? & can you explain how you did it?" Buddy said--"I'm not sure I remember how I did it". The guy brought-up a portable tape recorder & played the actual recording that Ray Price & Willie Nelson did. After Buddy listened to it, he then played it exactly the same way. That stuck in my mind. I know that the steel greats are in a totally different level, with heavy schedules of recording, touring, & special televised shows--it just shows the human side of the great players. Of course, being a Buddy Emmons fan, Buddy can play anyway he wants to & that's just fine with me!

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 19 Mar 2011 9:09 am

Some songs REQUIRE the original lick or it is not that song. I have a pet peave that some of the material is written around an arrangement. Still there is the KEY thing. I had a guitar player fussing one night about not doing the original licks so I told the band it was my time to sing and I did "Folsom Prison Blues" in Eb. He didn't anything else.
If a group is booking as an act they have the right to do things their way. How many groups have done "Elvira" like the original or even "Night Life".

Gordon Borland · Post by **Gordon Borland** » 19 Mar 2011 10:40 am

Night Life
Whiskey River
Together Again
Crazy Arms
And the list goes on of required licks or its not that song. If you get a second ride in the song then I can have some fun. I assumed a lot when I started this thread and that was not right.

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 19 Mar 2011 11:05 am

Roual Ranes wrote:Some songs REQUIRE the original lick or it is not that song. I have a pet peave that some of the material is written around an arrangement. Still there is the KEY thing. I had a guitar player fussing one night about not doing the original licks so I told the band it was my time to sing and I did "Folsom Prison Blues" in Eb. He didn't anything else.
If a group is booking as an act they have the right to do things their way. How many groups have done "Elvira" like the original or even "Night Life".

So was your guitar guy mad because he had to copy licks or was he mad because everyone else wasn't copying? I'm not clear on that.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 19 Mar 2011 12:46 pm

I am with Tony on this one. With over fifty-five years of playing a half dozen instruments, I have strived to learn first, the tune's melody, then the chord structure, then the way it was all put together on the recording.

As for doing my own thing on the stage with a band, I do it when the band is a free wheeling group where everyone stretches the latitudes of the song. For the most part however, I stay in the realm of what the band is known for.

At present (going on 3 years) I play with a group that plays 90% classic country and they advertise themselves in that respect. We have a well practiced/rehearsed set of songs for each night, including once a month, a 1/2 hr. Hank Williams Sr show. We have spent hours on duplicating the H.W. sound and no one does their own thing in that session to any degree.

Three of us get two solos during each show/gig where we can push the classic country sound to its not classic country limits. I play Marie Elana on the steel which is no where near country but it always gets a nice round of applause.. We also take requests which really tests our ability at times to wing it if we don't know the original recording all that well.

If any of us tries to go off on our own tangent while backing one of the vocalists, we are either told to get back in line or end up on the outside looking in.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 19 Mar 2011 2:56 pm

Dave,
He wasn't mad...just aware that sometimes the "key" will not let you do the original sound.
I would not expect The Oak Ridge Boys to sound like The Statler Bros. Patty Paige had the original Tennessee Waltz but at least ten others did the same song and no one copied her. Still there is material that has to be done as close to original as possible or it is not that song. Amarillo By Morning comes to mind. Then there is Your Cheating Heart..... released by Tony Bennet (sp).....he didn't sound a bit like Hank nor did the band.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 19 Mar 2011 3:09 pm

Every night when we play "Time is Tight" I strive to duplicate Booker T.'s organ licks note for note as best I can...

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 19 Mar 2011 3:24 pm

if you make it up as you go along you are playing the Steel not the song.

That pretty much sums it up for me, Tony. Nothing else left to say.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 19 Mar 2011 4:43 pm

"It Depends" is the only real answer to this.
How do I do "Funny How Time Slips Away" ....Billy Walker, Ray Price, Elvis, Willie..........?
Then there is "Blue Berry Hill"...somebody in 1939, Gene Autry in 1941, Fats.....etc

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 19 Mar 2011 5:34 pm

Roual-
Interesting point..Most of the bands I played "Act Naturally" with did the Beatles' version.Then I worked for one that did Buck's version.Same with "Pop A Top".Jim Ed or Alan Jackson? I think the rule of thumb is to do the one the audience most remembers,which in the two cases above means the Beatles and Alan Jackson(fine by me-I won't miss a chance to cover George Harrison and Brent Mason),but you can get in trouble,too.A few years ago there was a version of "Someday Soon" that was pretty Hover-Round compared to the Judy Collins version with Buddy Emmons AND James Burton.
BTW I was thinking about "Folsom" in Eb.With a little Travis-picking it's definitely do-able.

EDIT: I have the feeling that the playability of parts being dependent on the key of the song is maybe a bigger problem on six-string than on pedal.What do y'all think?

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 19 Mar 2011 8:14 pm

This is gonna get harsher. Sometimes I read threads by guys who over represent their playing caliber and give advise on the Forum. Then they go and post lame versions of Merle Haggard songs on youtube with bad tone, poor timing, and lousy equipment. Sounds like when my cell phone goes off. Some of them even claim to play jazz! Like having toilet paper stuck to your shoe. They have never been on the firing line in a real professional act playing to 4-5000 people a night where you are expected to play your part. Their youtube videos are embarassing, bearing vague resemblance to the original songs.
Others post great instructional videos on youtube showing practical knee lever usage and accurate steel parts from name steel players. Bravo to them.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Mar 2011 1:44 am

Kevin Hatton wrote:I read threads by guys who over represent their playing caliber and give advise on the Forum.

Then they go and post lame versions of Merle Haggard songs on youtube with bad tone, poor timing, and lousy equipment. Their youtube videos are embarassing, bearing vague resemblance to the original songs.

Kevin, I have 2 or 3 versions of Merle tunes on Youtube, so you must be talking about me ! Thanks for watching !

Here are a couple vid's below.. , I am not ashamed of them , in fact they are learning projects with full tab , tracks and discussions of which many players have acquired them and advised me that they have made fine progress with them. To take it a step further, I have been commissioned by many across the net to do E Sessions as a result of these vids...

It's all good...

Maybe, just maybe, a player who in some eyes is seen as embarrassing has reached a landmark by posting a vid, maybe that was a goal that they were trying to reach and they did it ...they are not ashamed, I'm not ashamed...and I certainly am not ashamed of any player who puts it all out there, even if they are trying to show what they are playing.

Now I don't care if you are referring to me or not, doesn't much matter. I have spent time with many brand new students and I can state this with absolute certainty, when a new player learns something and shares it that is huge, I have a few who have played over my project tracks and sent them back to me by email, it's an amazing honor to have a studying student send back there version of the program they are studying, it's not about tone or gear, it's about the progress they have made and the excitement of the accomplishment, even if it is in a YouTube video that some deem as an embarrassment.

My lousy equipment is a 2004 Carter D10 9+8, built by my late great friend, John Fabian, whom I think of everyday when I sit and practice. I ditched 2 Sho-Buds, an Emmons Legrande and an MSA and kept this Steel, which is my 3rd Carter...I don't expect anyone else to love it, I do, that's all that matters...

rock out..here are two Merle tunes and just to clarify I actually do know exactly what levers I am using and why, and I say so in my projects, as that is the purpose of the projects, to teach those pulls...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STaqjsRoOR4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY3aKxc6aDA

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 20 Mar 2011 6:12 am

Kevin,

You are right about the Nashville touring scene.......It is expected that every player learn the songs first.....After you have the gig awhile some artists will relax the verbatim thing....but then some never do......I know of several artists who tape the show and listen back.....If someone changes the part they get called on it....If they continue to do their own thing someone else will get the gig.

I think the point is simple........If you don't know the parts learn them, "exactly"...You'll become a better musician for that extra effort.....If no one demands you play them exactly like the recordings take liberties within the style of the song........Paul

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Mar 2011 7:45 am

I don't think anyone is taking issue with playing it like the original versions, the records if you will. Nashville, touring , show band even a local regular working cover band, if any musician if hired to play the set list for the original artist or LIKE the original artist , wouldn't it be a given to play the parts as required or you won't be in the seat very long ?

My take has always been play whats required first or get as close as you can within your ability. Then also be able to stretch should the moment arise. Obviously, some of us just do the best we can as we are part time players and not full time warriors. But the principle is the same.

it's all good...

happy Sunday

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 20 Mar 2011 8:34 am

Deleted

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Mar 2011 10:51 am

Ok Richard , you are making me come to the table here..
I'm not anything close to an accomplished lower ten player so 3 of my knee levers and 5 pedals are just for looks ! I'm just a dedicated E9th kinda guy so 4 and 5 works. I'm actually trying to figure out how to get my config to 4 and 6...but I haven't really put forward much effort...lazy I guess, maybe I'm putting in too much Netflix time !

kyle reid · Post by **kyle reid** » 20 Mar 2011 1:59 pm

Kevin & Paul.
It's great to see you telling it like it is, I can't imagine someone playing songs like, "Just Between You & Me" any different than Lloyds version, There's many other songs that fall into this category! Pick Me Up on ywd Jimmy Day
Together Again Tom Brumley
Whiskey River Weldon Myrick
Look At Us Papa John

This Subject makes me think of a certain TV show "Not from TX or Tn" now on RFD that"s not even close!
Thank You Both!

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