12 String Ext E9

[Rick Schmidt]

I'm wondering why there's not more interest in 12 string E9th? Particularly from steel players who come from a standard guitar background.
Seems to me, having down to a guitar "E" is a great plus for rythyms and scale riffs, etc...

Well I just had to go back to see how Michael kicked off this thread....and it's true...as a 6 stringer myself, extended E9 makes alot more intuitive sense. Actually, even on a 6th tuning, I've always thought that just having the root of most of the chords down in the bass makes visualizing the big picture alot easier. I've never been one to think in terms of upper partials.

[Bo Legg]

The extended E9 11th and 12th strings are on my Tele.
I don't play a lot of chords on the E9 other than triads and my blues, rock and jazz consist mostly of single note lines. If I need to get lower than that or try to compete with the guitar player I just go to my other neck the Tele.

[John McClung]

Found some time to show you all my current blingy extended E9 copedent.

The 8th string raise to F# on C pedal I like a lot (Rick, you do too as I recall), but due to stiffness usually dial that out, sadly. Maybe when I get the G2 Mullen I can leave it active!

The new Front RKL (nicknamed "Paul", I've run out of logical letter-naming conventions!) is new, not sure how that's going to work out ergonomically, stand by for news. But this is the best place for those changes on my idiosyncratic copedent.

I see lots of players combo the raises on strings 1 and 2 with the 6th string whole tone lower, but that's awful, you destroy some cool chords when you do that. The way I have it there are no conflicts that I've ever run across.

The new-to-me changes on "Ralph" are very cool, finding lots of uses for them, and that's a great location to use in conjunction with A+B. One example: play a B chord with E's lowered on RKL, strings 8-7-5, then hit Ralph, nice B minor when that string 8 lowers another half tone. Some counterpoint possibilities with the E's raising and lowering, too.

[b0b]

Way cool, John. I've never seen anyone put G# compensators on the F lever before. Why? Is there enough additional cabinet drop from the F lever to knock the G# out of tune?

[John McClung]

Hey b0b,

I tune my E9 "pretty" with the 3rds at about 437 Hz. In my A+F position that's enough too flat to drive me nuts, so those raise compensators just pull the high and middle G#'s maybe 1/8th of a tone higher, to sweeten the chord just right. I don't compensate string 11, that's an error on the chart.

I used to avoid the A+F combo until I added compensators. I'm a finicky tuner, needless to say.

The 8th string whole tone lower on "Ralph" is a sound I'm stealing from Tom Brumley, although I'm pretty sure he does it a different way. Say you're playing a 5 chord open, strings 8-6-5; add KL E (optionally pedal B); then let go of B and add Ralph (once engaged you can let go of E, too); just a nice smooth move to the V7 chord.

[b0b]

John, is your minor chord with the A pedal in tune? If so, why doesn't the compensator on the F lever throw the G# to C# interval out?

I always aim sharp when I use A+F. I even roll the bar a bit sharp for the A pedal minor chord. I figure I gotta do these things to stay in tune with the other instruments.

[John McClung]

I tune open to get all notes in E major beatless.

Then tune pedals A+B down A chord to get that chord all pretty and beatless.

The A pedal works fine for me in both the A major and C# minor chords.

(NEW INFO: recently added more compensators, pedal A raises strings 3 and 6 slightly to make a pedal A minor chord perfectly in tune. You'd think that the same compensator raises on lever F would suffice, but if I use just F by itself for a 3-up 7th chord, I still need those tuning adjustments on that lever as well as pedal A. Talk about tail-chasing! I'm needing a 4 raise, 3 lower guitar, time to move to an Excel, I reckon, ha.)

Then I tune the F kl changes to sound right first with the A pedal notes in a C# major. The 3rd and 6th string G# notes are then just a teensy too flat, so the raise compensators on those strings sweeten the C# major chord with A+F.

That explain it?

The 7th string lower compensator on pedal B makes A6 chords (with A+B) pretty, and D major chords (pedal B only), root on string 9, pretty. Without pedal B pressed, B6 chords with E kl using string 7 are pretty and beatless, I tune string 7 open to sound right in that E lever B6 chord.

I vary how I tune, sometimes on my BOSS TU-12 it's 440, other times 441 or 442, depends on how I feel I'm sounding with the band of the moment.

[Michael Dulin]

Here's my contribution to the poll...

Emmons set up.
pedal A raises 5&10 to C#
pedal B raises 3,6,11 to A
pedal C raises 4 to F#,5 to C#,12 to F#
LKL raises 4&8 to F, lowers 12 to C#
LKV lowers 5&10 to A#
LKR lowers 4&8 to D#
RKL raises 1 to G,lowers 6 to F#,lowers 12 to D
RKR lowers 2 to D/C#. 9 to C#
These changes on the bottom give me the ability to
duplicate 5,6,7&8 an octave lower.

Zumsteel S-12 ExtE9 3&5 M.D.

[Clete Ritta]

Ive been changing things around on this Fessy S12 for a long time now.
I got it on the forum several years ago from Mike Perlowin.
He was then upgrading to another Millennium at the time.


Once returned to its original E9/B6 U12 8X5, I got a good sense of the low end grips for rock and blues fairly quickly, as well as cut a few teeth in B6 mode and pedals. Its now a 6X5 Extended E9 setup:



Its a lot of fun to play, because there are a few changes that I dont have on my other E9 guitars, and its my only 12 string.

Ext E9 tuning seemed like it would be an easy jump from the 10 familiar E9 strings to just adding two lower notes on 11 and 12.
But was I wrong?
I have been struggling to avoid the string 9 D by mistake, just like I did on 10 string , but now from the lower strings its all new.
Granted, there are wide grips (12, 10, 6 etc.) with the low strings which produce chords in beautiful low inversions, but its a whole new set of lower grips to learn. And that pesky D.

Maybe I should quit fighting it and learn how to use that string 9 on Ext12 in the low range.
And, maybe I shouldnt have dabbled with the E9/B6 Uni tuning first.
Ive been considering adding or changing to some E9/B6 Uni tuning, pedals or some sort of hybrid again on this one, only because of its potential for hybrid experimentation, which is what this ultimately is. A lot of fun!

Any help on Extended E9 playing on strings 11 and 12 and how you use them with string 9 D.
And, if youre still reading, any changes to the copedent that you think are missing from the lower strings (plus I still have two unused pedals).
Thanks,
Clete

[Jerry Hayes]

Here's my version of an Extended E9/Uni. I call it my "Mooney" or "West Coast" Universal. It's basically just an extended E9 with the 2nd and 9th strings tuned to C#. I've tried to post the copedant but it comes back all out of kilter so here's what my pedals and levers do......

LKL...This raises my 2nd string C# to D# and lowers my 10th string B to A#

LKV...Lowers my 5th string B to A#

LKR...Raises both my 2nd and 9th strings C# to D

P1....This lowers my 3rd string G# to G and raises my 7th string F# to G#

P2...Standard "A" pedal raising 5 and 10 B to C#

P3...Standard "B" pedal raising 3, 6 and 11 G# to A

P4...Raises 5th string B to C# and 6th string G# to A#

P5...Lowers 7th string F# to F and 12th string E to C#

P6...lowers 9th string C# to C, 10th string B to A# and 12th string E to D#

P7...Raises 1st and 7th strings F# to G

P8...Raises 4th string E to F#

RKL..Raises strings 4 and 8 E to F

RKR..Lowers strings 4 and 8 E to D#

Here's a shot of my BMI and my MSA....JH in Va.

[Jay Fagerlie]

Hey Jerry,
Thanks for bringing this topic to the top.

I've had my Dekley SD12 for a few years now and have never really got into the chromatic string thing...
This topic gives me some ideas (E13th)
Thanks everybody!

Any other input?
It seems there could be more discussion on this topic.
Jay

[Brint Hannay]

I've had the itch to try Ext. E9 for a long time, but have never sat down to a 12-string.

I'm very interested in how people exploit it with pedals and levers, not just to get extra low range with otherwise standard E9 changes, but creating additional possibilities.

Joe Turner gets some wonderful chord stuff out of his Ext. E9, but I've been unable to find out what his changes are. He uses 5 pedals, not sure how many knee levers.

[Jay Fagerlie]

Hey Brint,
Any examples of Joe Turner?

Thanks

Jay

[Brint Hannay]

I heard him in person. Don't know of any recordings.

[Clete Ritta]

I changed a few pulls on the Ext E9 tonight.
Heres what it looks like now:

I added the string 10 raise to my C pedal.
Seemed like I was missing something on the low end without it.
Its a quite a bit stiffer action now.
I'll test it out for a while and see if it feels worth the extra effort.

Also added the lower on 10 to P5 (Franklin) which was also missing on the bottom.

The third change was string 12 to lower to C# instead of raise to F along with 8 and 4 on LKL.
I particularly liked this change right off the bat. The A+F (which I use a lot) sounds much better on the bottom strings.

Im also getting used to some low string grips now.
I took a bit of advice from b0b and started concentrating on string 11 more. Practicing on strings 11, 8 and 5 particularly yielded some very nice sounding inversions I was not used to playing.

I added these changes to try and give the Ext E9 tuning a bit more of a chance on the low end of the tuning before reverting back to E9/B6 U12 out of frustration.

One change Id like to add somewhere is a whole step raise on string 7 F# to G#
I may alter P6 for now, since Im all out of levers.
Any thoughts on adding this pull to RKR (lowering 2 and 9)?

Clete

[b0b]

I stopped playing extended E9th last year, but I did use it for over 30 years. Here's the last extended E9th copedent I had:
<center>

</center>Don't ask me why. It just evolved that way.

[Clete Ritta]

b0b,

Thanks!
Id like to try some of your changes.
Im especially interested in the Pedal 1 and 4 changes.
I do find the P5 change useful by itself or with P2 (A) as well.
I recently added that to my P0, so...

...Don't ask me why. It just evolved that way.

I wont ask "Why?", but how about just a few more "Hows?"


How did it evolve to P5 on your coped?
Ive seen a few have this change on P0, which was what inspired me to experiment with it there.
How often did you combine P5 with other pedals, and was it usually using the right foot?
How did you use P1 and P2 together?

Thanks for answering the how part.
Why just gets too philosophical.

...I stopped playing extended E9th last year...

That doesnt mean that extinction is part of the evolution does it!??

Clete

[Adam Moritz]

bob, what does the RKL string 7 "+" indicate on your copedent?

Also in general i was wondering how u12 players without the D string are able to play the three string pentatonic runs?

ie on E10

with D lowered to C#

7 F#
8 E
9 C#
10 B

These are all parts of the C#m/E pentatonic. Ext E9th has this available and easy to pick at fast and clean. On a U12 you'd have to reposition the bar or mash the pedals. Both may add nice sound, but it's different approach. Any body out there have ideas on this? I'm curious about getting the lower register strings on my next guitar, and really like the idea of the boowah style pedal (B---G#/E---C#), buy not sure what distinctions u12 or extE9 will give me. I've worked a lot of these pentatonic runs into my bag of tricks on the std E9 so I need to be persuaded either way.

[Clete Ritta]

bob, what does the RKL string 7 "+" indicate on your copedent?...

Good catch! I dont think its a typo.
Im gonna guess its a compensator rod to slightly raise 7 in tune when A+F are used. That looks like a good spot for one.

Clete

[b0b]

Clete,

I don't recommend my changes to anyone. The standard changes are much more versatile than what evolved on my 12 string over 30 years of playing. I didn't want to give up certain licks I'd developed, which is why the X lever is on P4 and the G# lowers are on P5.

I used P1 and P2 together with the F lever to get a monster rock power chord (low C# is the root). It's easier to understand at the first fret where the notes are:

D A D D F# A A D F# A (E G)

I didn't combine P5 with other pedals. I mostly just used it for minor chords. It would have been a lot more useful on P1 (like Joe Wright) or on a knee lever (like Doug Livingston).

Adam, the "+" is a compensator pull. I tuned my F# string to be in tune with the C# notes, and pulled it sharp about 10 cents when I lowered by E strings for a better sounding B chord. This is backwards from what most folks do. It's more common to tune F# to the B strings and lower it a bit on the A or B pedal.

As a result, my F# string was out of tune with my B strings unless I used the knee lever. Not real smart.

Again, none of the oddball things on my E9th should be taken as recommendations. They are mostly just strange ideas to be taken as lessons in how to limit your potential. The standard E9th changes are better.

[b0b]

...I stopped playing extended E9th last year...

That doesnt mean that extinction is part of the evolution does it!??

When the band I'd been playing with for 8 years broke up, I saw an opportunity to change directions. The 12 string E9th is viable for any E9th player who needs low notes. I still think it's a great idea, but I recommend that people use more standard changes and just think of it as E9th with an extended range instead of as a different beast.

[Jerry Hayes]

Adam, Uni players can get those same notes in the same order on strings 6, 7, 8 & 9 by just dropping back two frets and using the A pedal by doing that you'd get...

F#
E
C#
B This would be the notes at the 10th fret...JH in Va.

Clete, I think a couple of changes you might consider for your 7th and 8th pedals would be to drop your 7th string to F and your 12th string to C# on one pedal. And raise your 5th and 6th strings a whole tone each on the other. These would work better if the 9th string was lowered to C# along with them.........JH in Va.

[David Ellison]

I love this thread... there's so much great information here.

If I had a 12-string pedal steel, I'd want to try adding a C# between the high B and E strings, and a G# on the bottom... making it an E13.

I used to play a D8 non-pedal steel, and used the E13 tuning on one neck. That tuning is great for western swing even without pedals, and is so close to the E9 pedal steel tuning that it seems like it would be a logical thing to do... but I've never heard of anyone doing it. I think it would be much more intuitive than the universal tuning, because it's always an E tuning. When playing swing, you'd of course still have the A6 (A&B pedals down) and B6 (E lever) sounds too.

Have any of you ever tried this?

[Brint Hannay]

Buddy Emmons put that C# in there, but he had the 12th string as E rather than G#.

[b0b]

I think that a C# string would be redundant. You already have the C# note on the 5th string with two different pedals, and on the second string with a knee lever.

When I want to sound like Don Helms on E13th (the Hank Williams sound), I use my A pedal to change the 5th string from B to C# as required. Don never played the B and C# strings together - he always played one or the other.

Plus there's a sympathetic vibration problem that occurs when the pedaled C# note is next to a C# string. The C# string starts ringing, and keeps ringing when you release the pedal. So you have to do some extra cleanup blocking. Annoying! (I have this same problem on my D6/G 8 string copedent - one of its several flaws.)