What Should I Learn Next? (a beginner)

[Joe Cook]

As a PSG beginner and a long time six stringer, I find these comments VERY helpful. Thanks ya'll for the advice.

[Barry Hyman]

Let's try to confine our advice to Michael and other new players to information that would be actually helpful to them?

A technical discussion of modes and relative minors belongs in a separate thread. What bOb has said is true and useful, but the implications of the argument quickly led responders to things that are probably just going to confuse a new player.

[David Ellison]

When I was starting out, my goal was to start playing with a band as quickly as possible. Once I learned some different licks from recordings, I tried to use those to develop a kind of "working knowledge" of how to get around on the instrument. I'd take the licks I'd learned, and tried to twist and bend them into working over any kind of song I might run into. I had a very small vocabulary of pedal steel knowledge... but I was able to get a lot of milage out of it. I think I spent much more time doing this than I spent learning new things. Then any time I learned a new lick, it was almost second nature to break it down and work it into every thing I was doing. To me, that's the most enjoyable part of learning to play because it involves more creativity.

[Michael Murray]

I just want to say thanks to everyone for your generous advice. I'm printing this - and keeping near my psg - to continue on the path of learning and enjoyment!

Michael

[Tony Prior]

It does appear that there is some differences of opinion as to what is best, all good opinions by the way.....

I was a beginner once and I am a teacher now..but I didn't become a teacher overnight.. here is my formula, and it should be modified buy the student..

Don't practice hours each day unless you know what it is you are practicing and why. Break your practice into elements which can be 5, 10, 15, 20 etc "whatever" minutes you feel is working for you, But practice some time in every element every day.

Scales are important, boring as all get go, but important...

Knowing where your root chords are is very important, the method of knowing is not near important as knowing how to access them..

Knowing your root chords in several positions up and down the fretboard is imperative.

Knowing your A.B,C pedal positions is imperative

Speed Pickin' is not imperative

What songs do I learn ?

Well here is the part that I love to tell about...

What difference does it make unless you are really focusing on a particular song that you like.

Plug in an Alan Jackson CD ( do you like AJ ?) and play along , the whole CD. Here you will get different keys, different structures and different phrasing. As a beginner, the value of playing along with a CD of music that you like is the value statement. If you are not certain of the song, stop the CD, chart the song, then play along again. The trick here is to hear what the Steel player is doing and in what positions on the fretboard. I use AJ as an example as the cd's are loaded full of traditional steel. Buck, Merle..etc..all good..

Scales, chord study, pick blocking, right and left hand technique , volume pedal technique etc...it's all relative to study but playing music at the end of each practice session is not only important but fun. Isn't that why we are learning to play in the first place ? Do it all but don't use up your entire practice session doing one thing...

By the way , playing along with a CD, if you don't get past the first song for a week or two... it's ok..you will...

t

[Stuart Legg]

Yeah sure let's just all dumb down as usual.
Don't use your head just play out your but.
This is not aimed at any one person here.
Teaching music and teaching how to play an instrument is two different things.
Most learn and then teach an instrument but most fail to learn music therefore can't teach music.

[Brint Hannay]

While I agree with b0b on the pick blocking and being aware of the relative minors,
I believe it is much simpler not to think in terms of relative minors when playing a scale over a given minor chord, but rather think in terms of a Major chord and three of the chord’s modes. The Ionian (major) mode, Dorian (minor) mode and Mixolydian (Dominant 7th ) mode.
For example the relative minor for the Key of C is Am. This Am scale shares the same notes with the C major and implies that you logically would play a C major scale over an Am chord. But in truth most generally you would only play a C major scale if the Key was designated as Am or C. In almost all other instances you would play the Dorian mode of the G major scale over an Am chord which of course shares the same notes as the G major scale.
There is only one note difference in the C major scale (F note) and the G major (F# note) but that F note in the Am scale can be a real clam.

So my chart looks more like this for picking and most generally play the scales using pedals in the up and down positions of those major chords.

For this chord…… I use this scale
Am......................G major…...The major scale built on the b7 of the minor chord
A7.......................D major…...The major scale built on the 4th of the 7th chord
A.........................A major…...This is a no brainer’

That's exactly what I mean by "thinking like a guitar player", Stuart.

I think it's more like "thinking like a musician." What in what Stuart said is guitar-specific?

[Clete Ritta]

I have to add a point about b0bs theory of thinking like a guitar player and relative minor positions on the PSG.
I have found that after playing guitar for 30 years, and just recently began playing pedal steel that I have begun to think on guitar a bit differently now.
Not like Im trying to play like a steel on the guitar or anything, but substituting positions and chord voicing.
My original post referred to the E type bar chord, which most guitarists are very familiar with.
Goes with A-type bar chord which is easiest.
The G and C type bar chords require a little more strength in the pinky finger and arent used as much typically.
For instance, a C chord on guitar at fret 5 in G type and its relative minor (A minor) also at the 5th fret but in E (minor) type.
The G major and E minor connection is there on guitar as well, and though I have played this way for years, its only after playing steel a while that it somehow looks different.

Even on the guitar, b0bs theory (thinking about where the tonic and relative minor are) make sense from a theoretical point. On PSG it is your Pedal A, that simple.

Clete

[Cal Sharp]

Learn all the George Fox songs. Disclaimer: I used to work for him. You might get some ideas at Steel Guitar Madness.

[Bill Howard]

I bet when Winnie was writing his little book he didn't have a clue how many guys would learn of of his great writings and ideas.
My first licks were Winnies tabliture...
That little record ...no body knows....
about my cares....
RAG:).
I still remember winnies voice in it:).
I would pratice with that record then start playing with records loaded with Steel,I learned going where the lonely goes and Easy as Pie,I think Pete Drake done Easy as Pie....
Take your steel out and play with bands...tell them you will not interefere turn Amp toward you play to yourself..When you start getting good THEY will ASK you to play:).
Every part is important,V Pedal,Blocking,BAr Hand,stay AWAY for EXCESSIVE BAR SHIVER (VIBRATO).
I have noticed a LOT of novice players use WAY to MUCH!. Unless your Playing a Hawaiian Show:).
Bar Shiver is MEANT to accent a lick toward the end of it,not a way of using the bar all of the time, John Hughey was a Master at that!. Also you need to apply a lot of pressure to the Bar hold it straight dead over fret,this is VERY important for sounding pro,,Not enough pressure?, NO TONE!... Try making chords avoid riding A&B pedals ALL the time WAH WAH WAH..... This always gives away an Amateur:).
Practice Practice Practice....Good Luck

[Ricky Thibodeaux]

I dont understand all of that outer space stuff like the major scale built on the b7 of the minor chord. I play by ear with a little help from tabs now and then. Classic Country is my cup of tea. Oh, did I mention that Gary Carpenter,Reese Anderson, Jack Shults, and Mickey Adams are my neighbors.hint hint

[Dave Mudgett]

With due respect to my esteemed colleagues who suggest to learn to think like a guitar player:

1. Many learning pedal steel players have been playing guitar for a long time and already think like a guitar player. I had 30+ years in on guitar when I started, I definitely thought like a guitar player.

2. How one should think about this depends on what one wants to sound like.

3. My opinion - if one wants to sound like a pedal steel player, one needs to learn to think like a pedal steel player. Exactly what that means depends on how one feels about what a pedal steel player should sound like.

Myself, I took up pedal steel guitar so I could do things that would make me "sound like a pedal steel player", not replicate stuff I've been doing on guitar for years. In other words, orthogonal innovations.

Ya' know what I had achieved till I sat down with Mike Sweeney? Although I had figured out some of the basic technical stuff, I still was playing it more like I was a guitar player. That's not necessarily bad, but somehow I couldn't see that until someone who really had it down could kindly point it out to me in a nice way and show me how to move in the direction I wanted to go. Thanks Mike.

It all depends on what you want to do with this thing. All knowledge is good knowledge, but the stuff that really expands your scope (i.e., orthogonal to what you already know) is what pushes out the furthest. My take.

[Brint Hannay]

(This reply is in response to several posts, not all directed to any one person)

With due respect to my esteemed colleagues who suggest to learn to think like a guitar player:

With due respect to you, Dave, who are they?

I read back through the whole thread and the closest I could come to anything resembling suggesting "learning to think like a guitar player" is this:

I don't disagree with anything b0b said.
fwiw, If you have the G#'s to G lower, then you can think of fret three as both G and Gm.
This is a great change for steelers coming form a guitar background.
The one for the pedals down minor is the A+B+[B>Bb] split. This gives you the minor of whatever A+B pedals down chord you are at.
Again, these changes put alot of chords where a guitar player taking up Steel might expect to find them.

Why has this stirred negative response? Recognizing that some of the "geography" of the E9th tuning corresponds with the geography of the guitar, and that this is helpful to the steel student who already is familiar with the guitar is not a crime, surely. The concept of getting a minor with the "split" using the Bb lowers is a commonplace concept among steelers (though I don't see why it's needed when E lowers 1 fret up from the AB fret does it just as well, or better), so that can't be the problem. It would seem what sticks in the craw of those who post against "thinking like a guitar player" is the suggestion of having G lowers.

I really don't get this. We all read how Lloyd Green added the F lever to the then-standard setup. Should the steel community have resisted, saying "The great players you hear on records are getting along just fine without that"? Instead of saying "Great idea, that gives more flexibility in expressing music on this instrument"? Everyone nowadays accepts that having three locations on the fretboard providing three inversion possibilities for major chords is okay, even vital, on pedal steel. Yet somehow having a setup that provides the same for minor chords is a violation of the steel guitar ethos.

We have a constant flow of comment (in which I concur) on this Forum that decries thinking of the steel in limited ways, insisting that it is simply a musical instrument, like any other, and one should relate to music itself and not to conventions of how the instrument has been used.

Am I wrong to see a disconnect here?

(If anyone doesn't want to have G lowers, it's fine with me--I wouldn't pontificate that they "should" have them. It bothers me that others presume to imply that people shouldn't.)

[Dave Mudgett]

Brint, obviously I misinterpreted what was said - b0b was suggesting to 'not' think like a guitar player. That was based on me not reading carefully enough (I guess I'm too busy right now) but also based on my a-priori thoughts about what constitutes 'thinking like a guitar player'.

To me, thinking about chords in terms of positions at all is a typical but simplistic way of thinking about chords - e.g., the really simplistic chords like the open-strings Gmaj and Em on guitar as was discussed. But in fact, even on guitar, Gmaj and Em are readily available in 3rd position, and more importantly, all over the neck. There's nothing non-guitar-oriented or specifically pedal-steel oriented about that kind of thinking. Once one moves past the elementary stuff, I think that simplistic approach tends to change for either guitar or pedal steel. Notes are notes, chords are chords, find 'em where you can find 'em, all over the neck.

To me, 'thinking like a guitar player' has more to do with how one approaches playing the notes and chords one does play. As just one example, a typical 'thinking like a guitar player' thing is to pick or otherwise distinctly enunciate more notes. A typical 'thinking like a pedal steel player' thing is to let the bar do more of the work. Another - moving voicings within chords is a huge part of the pedal steel thing, but of course good jazz guitar players do this also. In principle, one can overcome physical differences in each instrument, but each has different things which can be exploited more or less directly.

Anyway - sorry for the confusion. Obviously, I should have said, "I agree with b0b - move away from thinking like a guitar player.", but with a different angle.

[David Mason]

I've heard a lot of guitar players who make me wish I could think like a guitar player better, when I'm playing guitar.

I kind of expect that by the time most guitar players come up with the scratch to buy a pedal steel, they've already made it up the guitar neck a ways into those spooky thirds-in-the-bass slash chords and all, right? Is anybody really looking for the G chord, C chord and the D without going above the third fret on a pedal steel guitar? Great Scott.

If so, I would tell them to stop thinking like a cowboy instead, because there are quite a few guitar players playing at a very rarified level of musicianship that perhaps only Easley, Stafford & Hoffner can touch... bring your steel to a jazz jam in a NY club? hmmmm. You going to call out "Bud's Bounce?" Better think like a guitar player, a damn fine one too.

[Gerald Menke]

Uh, there are two pretty important pieces to the puzzle here that don't seem to be getting much attention, namely time and intonation.

Get yourself a CD of drones or make one with a keyboard or software, and practice scales with it, working on getting the beats out. Try this in the dark so you are really using just your ears. Start with scales, major, minor, whole tone, etc., then try playing some licks and intros breaks from records, etc.

If you don't have a metronome, get one today, set it to 66 and get your right hand together, practice blocking with something keeping time. Make sure to practice playing straight 1/8th notes, and swung ones, triplets, etc.

Playing along with an AJ CD is great advice, every one of his CDs is like a master class in country writing, playing, production, but especially backing up a singer. Most of all, make every note count!

Best of luck, this Forum is an amazing resource.

Gerald

[Alexander Rehfeld]

I started out playing PSG in september 2010. If you don't have a teacher instructional DVDs provide a fantastic help to learn. You see, you hear and you can repeat or slow down just as you like. Jeff Newman's material especially the "Up From The Top Course" is higly recommendable. This course is priceless because it starts at the very foundation of good steel playing. Jeff teaches you how to grasp the song, to feel the chord changes, to play in time and to build your technique and tone. Mickey Adam's videos are superb too. 70 % of the licks and phrases I use I learned from Mickey.

Get you a program to download Mickey's youtube clips. I recommend clip grap (freeware) http://clipgrab.de/en

Get you a program to slow down audio files. Amazing slow downer is the best http://www.ronimusic.com/

Good luck!

[Max W. Thompson]

This has been a good thread for me to read today. I kind of stalled out on the steel a while back, mainly for personal reasons, like time constraints, a knee surgery, and other stupid stuff. Now I'm trying to get back to it, and I need to learn all the scales, melodies, and harmony lines on PSG. The idea of learning songs you want to play is very important here. When I took 3rd grade piano, my teacher used to transcribe hymns for me to learn, because they were more interesting than the stuff in the 3rd grade piano books. I think that approach will help here. Just find something you want to play, and learn it!

Oh, and I tried some of those orthogonal licks, and my bar shot across the neck and landed on the floor!