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Topic: High C6 vs. low C6 |
Ralph Czitrom
From:
Ringwood, New Jersey
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 3:26 am |
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| As a relative newbie to lap steel (less than a year), I find myself holding on for dear life sometimes. The information found here is priceless, and the learning curve would be much steeper without this community. I was lucky enough to score a 1955 Fender Deluxe 8 and have been learning from Cindy Cashdollar's videos as well as Reece Anderson's lessons at musictexasstyle.com. Both are excellent to learn from and both teach using high C6 (ACEGACEG). I've seen a number of teachers using low C6 (ECAGECAG) for both six and eight string. For instance, Doug Beaumier, whose work I admire, teaches using this spelling. A lot of you have advised to learn a particular tuning and stay with it for a good while. I've started to get comfortable with string groupings in high C6. It seems a little daunting to learn another fretboard. Is it common for players to switch between the two? With all the tunings which have been created for lap steel, how come two different C6's? |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 4:18 am
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I think you're reading the two versions in opposite directions (low to high vs high to low), the only difference between the two is that the low version has a low G on the 8th string instead of a high G on the 1st string:
Low C6....High C6
.................G
E................E
C................C
A................A
G................G
E................E
C................C
A................A
G.................
So as you see there's really not much of a difference, the "core" of the tuning is still the 6-string C6:
E
C
A
G
E
C
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Morgan Scoggins
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 4:37 am
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Hi Ralph,
It's all a matter of personal preference, But I never liked the high thin sound of thr G string with the high C6 tuning.
I play mostly A6 tuning which is three frets on my Remington Steelmaster below hi G C6 tuning( E,C,A,F#,E,C#,A,F#). It gives you a much fatter sound and you can retune this to a low C6 tuning in about 1 minute ( E,C,A,G,C,A,G)
You will find that most of the instruction material available is based on the low C6 tuning, or you can contact Herb Remington and get some great Western Swing stuff in A6 tuning.
Good luck, I started a little over three years ago and have a lot of fun with my music.
_________________
"Shoot low boys, the're ridin' Shetlands" |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 5:11 am
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C6th with the E top note is the one to use. Most instructional material is for this version, the C6th with a "G" on top is really the old A6th moved up three frets.
Initially (in the late '30's) there were in common use three TYPES of tunings that represented and facilitated the three inversions of a chord. i.e.
Root on top (E tunings)
Third on top (C tunings)
and Fifth on top (A tunings)
Whatever happened after that was just personal variations of the commonly accepted theme, Hence Three Necked Steel Guitars.
The Common set-up for a three necked guitar would have been, E13th, C6th (C13th) and A6th (B11)
The tunings that used re-entrant notes were mainly pedal steel guitar tunings with just a few exceptions. |
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John Allison
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 7:15 am
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Use the High G version. You won't be missing anything in terms of tabs for 6 string and most tab for 8-string low C6 doesn't make use of the lower strings, anyway. Yes, the high C6 is the same as the A6, only tuned up 3 half steps and A6 is a great tuning to have access to. It's the string intervals that you're getting used to and it wouldn't matter if you wanted to go with the A6 instead of C6...you have to transpose a lot of tab and learning material.
_________________
John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 7:27 am
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| John Allison wrote: |
| ...you have to transpose a lot of tab and learning material. |
That would be "Par for the Course" and an accepted part of learning to play IMHO..
I'm most definitely NOT a believer in trying to master just ONE tuning, it's the extra work that the mind has to do when using various tunings that will give you a more COMPLETE knowledge of the instrument..
Be aware that there are specific tunings for particular tunes, and played in ANY other tuning they would only be a compromise..
For example Sand COULD be played in other tunings, but is most effective in the B11th, likewise Hula Blues 'A La Sol Ho'opi'i, only works well in the C#m7 tuning (or E6th-13th) |
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John Allison
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 7:44 am
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| basilh wrote: |
I'm most definitely NOT a believer in trying to master just ONE tuning |
Agreed!
While it's important to establish a firm foundation in a particular tuning, it's also important to experiment with other options. Otherwise you're missing out on a huge untapped potential. Jazz standards love the C6/A7 tuning (at least the way I play 'em)... Western Swing just isn't the same without an E13...So much great Hawaiian music calls for the B11...
_________________
John Allison
Allison Stringed Instruments
Austin, Texas
www.allisonguitars.com |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 9:40 am
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Ralph - this is the decades old question, and honestly, imo, the reason so few make it past the "noodling" stage (other than to just play distorted blues on).
the issue with the steel, for the beginner is (in instruction material) an ESTABLISHED tuning that players can feel comfortable with . Look at pedal steel - its now pretty much set these days what the tunings and basic pedal changes are and people have come out with loads and loads of instruction - the only fear is if you one day decide to learn Universal.
BUT, there is the SAME G on top or not debate over there....so
its not really that big a deal and shouldn't throw you off - i think that the E on top works better for more expanded voicings and is more versatile, but the G on top for a beginner is a big help, your ear just wants to hear that 1-3-5 triad.
wait til you want to learn E13....everyone has their own tuning for this one
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 9:59 am
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| Jerome Hawkes wrote: |
| wait 'til you want to learn E13....everyone has their own tuning for this one |
Yeah but my one is better than yours, and my dad can beat your dad.. so there..  |
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 5:41 pm
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I started out on 6-string with the most common C6 tuning: CEGACE (lo to hi).
Then I switched to 8-string: ACEGACEG.
I have been playing that 8-string for a couple of years with a band, and I must say, I can't even remember the last time I picked that low A-string; I use the high G all the time, though.
So, if I had to switch to 6-string again, I'd probably use EGACEG now - in a band it's all about not getting in each other#s way, and the low end is usually covered by a bass player and a singer strumming open chords on an acoustic, anyway, so an extra high string for adding fills and lines above the rest of the band is more useful than an extra low one that just muddies up a frequency range already covered by the rest of the band...
But of course that depends a lot on what kind of music you are making, in what kind of setting - what I described works for a "generic" band (with bass and acoustic rhythm guitar), playing music where the "high lonesome" sound of the steels is wanted (we play country rock/alt.country/Americana).
If you just play by yourself, and try to play from TABs, you'd better choose the most common/popular tuning, that would be ACEGACEG by far! |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 6:11 pm
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| Roman Sonnleitner wrote: |
I started out on 6-string with the most common C6 tuning: CEGACE (lo to hi).
Then I switched to 8-string: ACEGACEG.
If you just play by yourself, and try to play from TABs, you'd better choose the most common/popular tuning, that would be ACEGACEG by far! |
Which one is the most common, Roman ? High G or E ..
Considering the plethora of Tabs and instructional material for the C6th with the "E" on top
I would question your second choice but definitely agree with your first..  |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 10 Feb 2011 6:16 pm
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| I have several resonator guitars, all tuned differently. I have one in standard G tuning, for folk and bluegrass, another in E tuning, mainly for blues, and an 8-string resonator which I built specifically so that I could tune it to B6. |
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Roman Sonnleitner
From:
Vienna, Austria
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Posted 11 Feb 2011 12:56 am
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| basilh wrote: |
| Roman Sonnleitner wrote: |
I started out on 6-string with the most common C6 tuning: CEGACE (lo to hi).
Then I switched to 8-string: ACEGACEG.
If you just play by yourself, and try to play from TABs, you'd better choose the most common/popular tuning, that would be ACEGACEG by far! |
Which one is the most common, Roman ? High G or E ..
Considering the plethora of Tabs and instructional material for the C6th with the "E" on top
I would question your second choice but definitely agree with your first.. |
OK, myabe it did not come out clearly enough, because I was mixing eight string and six string versions:
-) For 8-string: ACEGACEG - you've got the useful G on top; and for playing with a band I already find the low A rather useless, so any lower 8-string tuning (GACEGACE) doesn't make any sense to me.
-) For 6-string: CEGACE is surely BY FAR the most common tuning, so if you are trying to learn from books/DVDs, that's what I'd choose.
-) But for practical reasons mentioned above, when playing with a band I personally would probably prefer EGACEG if I had to play a six-string (fortunately, as I said, I have an 8-string). |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Feb 2011 10:46 am
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Ralph, thanks for mentioning my C6 work in your post. I appreciate it. Just to clarify, here are the tunings I use:
6-string C6
E
C
A
G
E
C
8-string C6
G
E
C
A
G
E
C
A
As you can see, the 8-string format is a Expanded version of the 6-string. So the licks and patterns that work on 6-string also work on 8-string, and fewer slants are needed on the top strings. I've experimented with a lot of 8-string C6 variations in the past, but for now I've settled on this one.
I also like E13, B11, and a number of other tunings.
Regarding your question about 6-string/8-string C6 tunings, any time you expand a 6 string tuning to 8 strings choices have to be made. I think each player needs to experiment with various setups and find what works best... for You and for the Style you want to play. With 8-string C6, I like having the full major chord on strings 3,2,1... root, 3rd, 5th. That's just my preference. As always, I believe that most of the music comes from the head and the hands of the player, and the tuning setup is secondary to that.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 11 Feb 2011 11:00 am
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The only solution is to buy a triple neck steel so you can have both C6s.  That's what I did.
However, on a single neck steel (or D- , C6 with the E on top is only choice for me. I get a lot of mileage out of the bass strings--more than I would from the high G. I play more up and down the neck than I do across and for me that cuts down on the usefulness of the high G.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 11 Feb 2011 11:58 pm
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| However, on a single neck steel (or D-8 ), C6 with the E on top is only choice for me. |
Your D-8 got turned into a cool smiley face with shades...
Steve |
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David Ellison
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2011 2:35 pm
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I have to play that Hank Thompson lick when going from the I to the IV ... so I need that 5th on top. How can anyone get by without that sound?  |
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Steve Ahola
From:
Concord, California
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Posted 14 Feb 2011 3:24 pm
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| David Ellison wrote: |
| I have to play that Hank Thompson lick when going from the I to the IV ... so I need that 5th on top. How can anyone get by without that sound? |
That is why the good Lord invented A6 tuning. Or was it Honky Tonk Angels that He made- I forget...
I was just noticing that all of the 4 string grips (6-3, 5-2 and 4-1) are sixths for High C6, Low C6 and A6 tunings (I am referring to a 6 stringer). There is nothing that sounds better to my ears than a sixth so having 3 of them straight across is something that gives those tunings a certain magic that we never got with the high bass G or Vestapol tunings.
The best exercise I know for learning the fretboard is going up and down the scales playing sixths, switching back and forth between the major and minor ones.
Steve Ahola
P.S. As pointed out before, you can convert Low C6 to A6 very quickly so you have your choice of the 3rd or the 5th on top. High C6 doesn't give you those options in such a neat package. (Although if you really, really, really need that high and lonesome sound you can retune High C6 for the top 6 strings of High E13th tuning. Which is not a bad idea if you are working through the Don Helms and Little Roy Wiggins books with a 6 stringer.)
_________________
www.blueguitar.org
Recordings on electric guitar:
http://www.box.net/blue-diamonds
http://www.box.net/the-culprits |
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Steve Green
From:
Gulfport, MS, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2011 8:44 am
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| basilh wrote: |
Initially (in the late '30's) there were in common use three TYPES of tunings that represented and facilitated the three inversions of a chord. i.e.
Root on top (E tunings)
Third on top (C tunings)
and Fifth on top (A tunings)
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I understand the "Third on top (C tuning)" would be (High to Low):
E - C - A - G - E - C - A - G or
3 - 1 - 6 - 5 - 3 - 1 - 6 - 5
And the "Fifth on top (A tuning)" would be (High to Low):
E - C# - A - F# - E - C# - A - F# or
5 - 3 - 1 - 6 - 5 - 3 - 1 - 6
But what would the "Root on top (E tuning)" be?
_________________
Some songs I've written |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 16 Feb 2011 11:20 am
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Steve under normal conditions it would be one of the E variants,
1. E
2. C#
3. B
4. G#
5. E or F#
6. D or C# or B
7. B
E. Low E (G# here is practically useless as it would almost certainly clash with the bass most of the time in chordal work) |
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