Is music theory necessary?
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Steve Hitsman
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Bill McCloskey
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You are playing dobro, right? Bluegrass mostly?
You don't need to learn any theory to have fun. More important than theory for a bluegrass dobro player is your rolls, hammer ons, pull offs. for the most part, you are not going to be playing in a lot of keys: G mostly, sometimes cappoed up to A, D.
Just have fun. Play something, see if it sounds good to your ears. If it does, do it again. If it doesn't, don't.
That said: in Mike Auldridge's instruction tape he says he really didn't start creating his own solos until he learned theory. That implies, he played for quite a while playing other people's solos successfully.
So: to have fun: no theory needed.
To get better: introduce it a little at a time.
You don't need to learn any theory to have fun. More important than theory for a bluegrass dobro player is your rolls, hammer ons, pull offs. for the most part, you are not going to be playing in a lot of keys: G mostly, sometimes cappoed up to A, D.
Just have fun. Play something, see if it sounds good to your ears. If it does, do it again. If it doesn't, don't.
That said: in Mike Auldridge's instruction tape he says he really didn't start creating his own solos until he learned theory. That implies, he played for quite a while playing other people's solos successfully.
So: to have fun: no theory needed.
To get better: introduce it a little at a time.
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Jay Seibert
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Just to throw in another two cents worth... Slow-downers and Transcribers are very cool tools, but the tool I have used most recently is Band-in-a-box! There are countless free versions of songs available just for the asking. BIAB allows the user to speed up or slow down any arrangement, allows the user to program any sequence of chords desired at what ever style or tempo desired, can transpose to any key with a tap of a button, never gets tired, never complains, as is never judgmental.
BIAB generates notes on the staff that the user can follow... a great aid to learning to read, and prints out music sheets for personal use or for distribution to other players. I use it now for writing original music and for writing specific parts or chords charts that I want others to follow in recording sessions.
But most of all, I use it twice a day, in the morning and in the evening, when I practice my guitar chops. I have always played by ear. I believe that it has been invaluable in my latest quest to learn the wonders of lap steel.
Living way out in the country makes it quite hard for me to get together with other players... BIAB is always at the ready.
BIAB generates notes on the staff that the user can follow... a great aid to learning to read, and prints out music sheets for personal use or for distribution to other players. I use it now for writing original music and for writing specific parts or chords charts that I want others to follow in recording sessions.
But most of all, I use it twice a day, in the morning and in the evening, when I practice my guitar chops. I have always played by ear. I believe that it has been invaluable in my latest quest to learn the wonders of lap steel.
Living way out in the country makes it quite hard for me to get together with other players... BIAB is always at the ready.
www.stoneslides.com is my Paloma Tone Bar and Bottleneck Slide web site
www.clayrabbit.com is my Pottery web site
www.clayrabbit.com is my Pottery web site
I think that you have to learn the visual scale and chord patterns on your fretboard if you want to play the instrument well. You need to know the names of the chords and sometimes the names of the notes to communicate with other musicians. I'm not sure how much of that is "music theory".
There's a language for music. The more you know of it, the better. I teach my students the relationship between major chords and their relative minors, and try to get them to memorize it because it helps to find chords quickly. C to Am, A to F#m, etc. That is definitely "music theory", but it's not just head work. It maps directly to the visual patterns that any good "ear" player sees on the fretboard.
Most good players who say that they don't know theory know more than they realize.
There's a language for music. The more you know of it, the better. I teach my students the relationship between major chords and their relative minors, and try to get them to memorize it because it helps to find chords quickly. C to Am, A to F#m, etc. That is definitely "music theory", but it's not just head work. It maps directly to the visual patterns that any good "ear" player sees on the fretboard.
Most good players who say that they don't know theory know more than they realize.
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I believe learning music theory to be an endless journey. The more I try to learn, the more I realize there is to learn.
An attitude towards learning as much theory as your brain will allow is to be advocated, makes you a better musician. But after you done that,trust your ear. It will set the final limit to what you can create and theory is a means to get there. And, as Uncle Ron Kanahele reminded me two days ago on the phone, play with your heart...
It has never been easier to learn, with the wealth of media available on Macs, iPhones, iPads, and other iDontKnows as I commented on this forum after visiting this year's NAMM. Not to forget the good folk on this forum with great energy, abilities and willingness to teach...
Scales and riffs, chords and inversions, intros and outros, verses and choruses, "middle eight" breaks......a fascinating and never ending journey.
And I did not get into the subject of timing and rhythms. With 13 notes to an octave (silence is a note, as Jerry Byrd used to say), the combinations are mathematically near infinite.
An attitude towards learning as much theory as your brain will allow is to be advocated, makes you a better musician. But after you done that,trust your ear. It will set the final limit to what you can create and theory is a means to get there. And, as Uncle Ron Kanahele reminded me two days ago on the phone, play with your heart...
It has never been easier to learn, with the wealth of media available on Macs, iPhones, iPads, and other iDontKnows as I commented on this forum after visiting this year's NAMM. Not to forget the good folk on this forum with great energy, abilities and willingness to teach...
Scales and riffs, chords and inversions, intros and outros, verses and choruses, "middle eight" breaks......a fascinating and never ending journey.
And I did not get into the subject of timing and rhythms. With 13 notes to an octave (silence is a note, as Jerry Byrd used to say), the combinations are mathematically near infinite.
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Bill McCloskey
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there is no doubt that theory has made me a much better and more interesting player. As an improvisor, it is sort of a necessity. But, then again, I'm playing mostly jazz flugelhorn. When I was playing dobro in a bluegrass band, theory wasn't really at the top of my list of things to focus on. But with jazz....you are not going far without a good grounding in theory.
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Bobby Snell
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Luckily, I learned basic music theory as a teenager on a keyboard. On the black-and-white keys the stuff just lays in front of you.
Dobro (or steel or PSG) is a different puzzle that may be more difficult for a beginner to learn music theory while struggling to get some basic chops---but no sense in wasting time learning to play piano.
The most important part of learning the "theory" is actually playing the scales, chords, etc., and listening to how it sounds. There is no shortcut but hours of that. As you learn how to recognize and construct different sounds, you will learn how to get your instrument to play them.
Dobro (or steel or PSG) is a different puzzle that may be more difficult for a beginner to learn music theory while struggling to get some basic chops---but no sense in wasting time learning to play piano.
The most important part of learning the "theory" is actually playing the scales, chords, etc., and listening to how it sounds. There is no shortcut but hours of that. As you learn how to recognize and construct different sounds, you will learn how to get your instrument to play them.
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Tony Glassman
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Think of it like this:
If you were driving but didn't know the street names and didn't have any maps, you'd still be able to drive, but you might not get to where you want to go and you probably wouldn't remember how to get there again but for a few landmarks that you might remember.
With music theory, it's like having a road map and being to able to make decisions based on proven paths. With a map, you can look at it and already plot your course before you even drive. It's the same with looking at a piece of music. You can still explore and go off-road, but you will always be aware of the boundaries and how to get back on track. Also, you can give directions to others so that you are all on the same path.
If you were driving but didn't know the street names and didn't have any maps, you'd still be able to drive, but you might not get to where you want to go and you probably wouldn't remember how to get there again but for a few landmarks that you might remember.
With music theory, it's like having a road map and being to able to make decisions based on proven paths. With a map, you can look at it and already plot your course before you even drive. It's the same with looking at a piece of music. You can still explore and go off-road, but you will always be aware of the boundaries and how to get back on track. Also, you can give directions to others so that you are all on the same path.
Last edited by Mike Neer on 11 Feb 2011 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill McCloskey
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The problem with theory is that most people start off teaching theory in a way that is disconnected to playing so it is hard to integrate what you are learning with what you are playing.
I wrote about this elsewhere on the forum, but learning how diminished chords work really helped me with theory in a way that was incredibly practical. There are only 3 diminished chords, so they are very easy to remember. Lower any one note of a diminished chord and you have a dominant 7th chord. Knowing this opened up a world for me as far as improvisation is concerned and I substitute diminished chords all over the place now.
On a dobro of course (like a flugelhorn) you are going to have to arpeggiate the chord, but, man, what an eyeopener it was when I started playing Diminished.
I wrote about this elsewhere on the forum, but learning how diminished chords work really helped me with theory in a way that was incredibly practical. There are only 3 diminished chords, so they are very easy to remember. Lower any one note of a diminished chord and you have a dominant 7th chord. Knowing this opened up a world for me as far as improvisation is concerned and I substitute diminished chords all over the place now.
On a dobro of course (like a flugelhorn) you are going to have to arpeggiate the chord, but, man, what an eyeopener it was when I started playing Diminished.
I wrote about the diminished/dominant connection in this thread:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... diminished
It is particularly useful on the steel guitar. Looking at harmony via triads works perfectly well for the steel guitar.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... diminished
It is particularly useful on the steel guitar. Looking at harmony via triads works perfectly well for the steel guitar.
Ah yes, chord substitutions...a magical topic, and steel guitar gives added scope with the fluidity of the left hand. A jazz guitar friend of mine says we steelers have an unfair advantage in that regard.
Mike Neer's analogy to roadmaps is amusing. My day job is in the GPS industry. With a GPS receiver woth voice recognition it is perfectly possible to get from A to B without ever knowing the geography in between. However, if you happen to mistype A to C, you will need to type in C to B to get there eventually, by which time in musical terms, the song will have played out.
Kay
Mike Neer's analogy to roadmaps is amusing. My day job is in the GPS industry. With a GPS receiver woth voice recognition it is perfectly possible to get from A to B without ever knowing the geography in between. However, if you happen to mistype A to C, you will need to type in C to B to get there eventually, by which time in musical terms, the song will have played out.
Kay
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Tom Karsiotis
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This is what I found when I began to understand theory. It also opens up possibilities you may not have thought of without it.Mike Harris wrote:Theory first puts names and labels on things you've been hearing and doing for years. From there you can communicate better with other musicians and you can understand newer ideas that might have seemed beyond your grasp before.
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Mark van Allen
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While there are some great insights and ideas in this thread so far, I have a slightly different take on theory in every day playing.
I think everyone is using theory nearly all the time when they play, whether they realize it or not.
For example, if you've ever thought anything like this:
"Oh, this song goes from a C to an F chord here, I wonder if I could use that lick I heard on that Jerry Byrd tune where it moves from C to F?"
"I know I can make this sound more bluesy if I drop back two frets and slide around a bit."
"I think I can use the same lick from song A in song B but I have to change just this one note for it to fit."
These are simply theory in action, without the nomenclature.
Having some theory knowledge won't just ease your communication with other musicians, it will help you understand, remember, and make sense of everything you already know, as well as visualize and create new licks and ideas. Knowing the theoretical reasoning behind something you or anyone else has played not only accomplishes all that, but it makes it easy to figure out how to play similar ideas in other locations or patterns, keys, songs, and situations.
All of that is hard to visualize when you haven't worked with theory much.
Learning a nice passage from a tablature arrangement brings the reward of having a "new lick", but realizing that (for example) it's a dominant phrase that connects a I to IV chord, and that you can use it in any key in a similar place, that a I to IV is the same move as a V to I, II to a V, and so on, literally transforms that phrase into hundreds or thousands of ideas.
It doesn't take a college level study commitment, there are many free internet resources and some great theory threads on the forum. Each little piece lays the groundwork for another, everything builds on and supports everything else, and there are many, many "AHA!" moments to inspire and motivate.
The songs we listen to and play are all based around theoretical constructs, whether we understand it or not. So why not put as many tools at our disposal as possible?
The one thing every music student has in common is the desire for shortcuts to learning, to get better faster.
Understanding the music we listen to and play from a theoretical perspective is that shortcut. A little study up front for a lifetime of payout.
I think everyone is using theory nearly all the time when they play, whether they realize it or not.
For example, if you've ever thought anything like this:
"Oh, this song goes from a C to an F chord here, I wonder if I could use that lick I heard on that Jerry Byrd tune where it moves from C to F?"
"I know I can make this sound more bluesy if I drop back two frets and slide around a bit."
"I think I can use the same lick from song A in song B but I have to change just this one note for it to fit."
These are simply theory in action, without the nomenclature.
Having some theory knowledge won't just ease your communication with other musicians, it will help you understand, remember, and make sense of everything you already know, as well as visualize and create new licks and ideas. Knowing the theoretical reasoning behind something you or anyone else has played not only accomplishes all that, but it makes it easy to figure out how to play similar ideas in other locations or patterns, keys, songs, and situations.
All of that is hard to visualize when you haven't worked with theory much.
Learning a nice passage from a tablature arrangement brings the reward of having a "new lick", but realizing that (for example) it's a dominant phrase that connects a I to IV chord, and that you can use it in any key in a similar place, that a I to IV is the same move as a V to I, II to a V, and so on, literally transforms that phrase into hundreds or thousands of ideas.
It doesn't take a college level study commitment, there are many free internet resources and some great theory threads on the forum. Each little piece lays the groundwork for another, everything builds on and supports everything else, and there are many, many "AHA!" moments to inspire and motivate.
The songs we listen to and play are all based around theoretical constructs, whether we understand it or not. So why not put as many tools at our disposal as possible?
The one thing every music student has in common is the desire for shortcuts to learning, to get better faster.
Understanding the music we listen to and play from a theoretical perspective is that shortcut. A little study up front for a lifetime of payout.
Very well put Mark, I couldn't have said it better myself, in fact, you put what I was thinking into words.. 
Joking aside, Mark you've encapsulated the reasons why theoretical knowledge is probably already there and just needs broadening.
John Davis posted earlier on the subject and admits to no knowledge. He's wrong, he's also a competent player and could, given the tuition, motivation and encouragement, progress to the level of being a top international pro.
He has and uses all the tools, and has the techniques required, but, he almost seems proud that he has gone so far without any musical knowledge..mmm
Where would he be with it ?
Seems like the fact he can play as good as he does, (and believe me he is good) is to him a badge to be worn proudly..
(John, I'm not knocking, just analysing..Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)
This particular mindset is prevalent amongst players with little or no "APPARENT" theoretical musical knowledge.
I'm glad John Davis posted on this subject, for he is an good example of a flower yet to bloom, all he needs is the fertiliser !! (Theoretical acumen)
For him, and those of a similar ilk, the time it takes to learn a new solo or fill, would be so much more productively spent grasping the basics of the numbers system. In my mind one of the essential parts of starting to understand music theory.
John Broughton (the OP) asked: "To be anything more that just a beginner player, will it be necessary to learn about theory?"
I think the general consensus is "yes and no"
More anon..
Joking aside, Mark you've encapsulated the reasons why theoretical knowledge is probably already there and just needs broadening.
John Davis posted earlier on the subject and admits to no knowledge. He's wrong, he's also a competent player and could, given the tuition, motivation and encouragement, progress to the level of being a top international pro.
He has and uses all the tools, and has the techniques required, but, he almost seems proud that he has gone so far without any musical knowledge..mmm
Where would he be with it ?
Seems like the fact he can play as good as he does, (and believe me he is good) is to him a badge to be worn proudly..
(John, I'm not knocking, just analysing..Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)
This particular mindset is prevalent amongst players with little or no "APPARENT" theoretical musical knowledge.
I'm glad John Davis posted on this subject, for he is an good example of a flower yet to bloom, all he needs is the fertiliser !! (Theoretical acumen)
For him, and those of a similar ilk, the time it takes to learn a new solo or fill, would be so much more productively spent grasping the basics of the numbers system. In my mind one of the essential parts of starting to understand music theory.
John Broughton (the OP) asked: "To be anything more that just a beginner player, will it be necessary to learn about theory?"
I think the general consensus is "yes and no"
More anon..
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L. Bogue Sandberg
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Steinar Gregertsen
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"Number system" illustrated with a chromatic C scale:
http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/adam-st ... /index.php
http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/adam-st ... /index.php
Those are different notation systems used to express the same idea - that the relationships between notes are the same in all keys. When those relationships are expressed numerically, the letter name of the note or chord is seen as largely irrelevant.L. Bogue Sandberg wrote:Basil,
Would you expand a bit on what you mean by "numbers system?" ii-V-I, Nashville Numbers System, major 6th interval, etc. all come to mind as numbers to me. I'm worried I'm missing something here.
Bogue
Many (most?) steel guitarists see the notes on their fretboards as patterns based in the number system. If asked, we often we have to stop and think to figure out the name of the note we're playing. Contrast this with a piano (or marimba
) player who instantly knows the name of any note he plays, but may not know what numbered chord he's playing or what position that note occupies in the chord - something that's instinctive to most steel guitarists.My question to the group is this: When you say "Music Theory", are you talking about knowing the names of notes and keys and chords, or are you talking about knowing the relationships within the framework of a scale (the number system)? Or both? Or something else entirely?
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Geoff Cline
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L. Bogue Sandberg wrote:Basil,
Would you expand a bit on what you mean by "numbers system?" ii-V-I, Nashville Numbers System, major 6th interval, etc. all come to mind as numbers to me. I'm worried I'm missing something here.
Bogue
The answer is YES, unequivocally YES!b0b wrote:Those are different notation systems used to express the same idea - that the relationships between notes are the same in all keys. When those relationships are expressed numerically, the letter name of the note or chord is seen as largely irrelevant.
Many (most?) steel guitarists see the notes on their fretboards as patterns based in the number system. If asked, we often we have to stop and think to figure out the name of the note we're playing. Contrast this with a piano (or marimba
My question to the group is this: When you say "Music Theory", are you talking about knowing the names of notes and keys and chords, or are you talking about knowing the relationships within the framework of a scale (the number system)? Or both? Or something else entirely?
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John Davis
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B0b I can answer that one.... we are all coming at it from our own angle, my music theory will start when I have learned which is my A,B.andC pedals ( I play Huntley/Day set up) Basil did give me a good talking to today and I now know the 1,4, and 5-7 chords so I have made my start!!My question to the group is this: When you say "Music Theory", are you talking about knowing the names of notes and keys and chords, or are you talking about knowing the relationships within the framework of a scale (the number system)? Or both? Or something else entirely?
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Jay Seibert
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Theory?
Play music by yourself, you don't need theory, all you need is your instrument, your soul, and your ears... play music with someone else, then you need to be able to communicate... whether you use number, note, or chord names, it's all good. That's all I need to enjoy playing music. That's my theory.
Play music by yourself, you don't need theory, all you need is your instrument, your soul, and your ears... play music with someone else, then you need to be able to communicate... whether you use number, note, or chord names, it's all good. That's all I need to enjoy playing music. That's my theory.
www.stoneslides.com is my Paloma Tone Bar and Bottleneck Slide web site
www.clayrabbit.com is my Pottery web site
www.clayrabbit.com is my Pottery web site
Re: Is music theory necessary?
John Broughten wrote:I'm 52 yoa and just started playing Dobro and lap steel two years ago. Before that, I had never picked up an instrument before and have no musical background what so ever.
I'm 60 and have been playing on & off for many years. For most of the time, I too learned by tab.....and when I put down the instrument long enough, I would forget the songs that I knew when I came back to it......
I was 54 when I decided to take a night class in basic music theory.....then I took an intermediate class....then I repeated the intermediate class....this has given me a great foundation of understanding of how music really works....and even though I haven't memorized scales & modes and chord relationships by rote.....I know how to get them by knowing the basic musical formulas.....
I recommend to you, to do as I did.....you will be thankful for it.....
PS....while there are many good books and online information...(I went through these also)....a real live class with a good instructor, IMO, is the best way to go......a good instructor will make it fun and easier to learn.....and the most important factor is being able to ask questions and have them answered.....
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Mark van Allen
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b0b, speaking for myself, I definitely mean both! I start my students right from the go with integration of basic theory, chord and scale construction, with the "nashville" number system.
Many students, and even advanced players, don't seem to realize that you can hear, or train yourself to hear, the "numbers" of a chord progression in a song as it scrolls by onstage or on a CD player. This is of course the foundation of being able to play "by ear", that so many find mysterious and elusive.
Eventually most students recognize that songs that have simple chord progressions are also easily played in other keys, and then that other similar songs can also be played in those other keys, and slowly.... gradually... build up the knowledge of how to transpose and use licks from one song in another, etc. There is a much faster route.
It's not opinion, but fact, that the number system can be used to label or notate the changes in any song, and that those numbers are the same for any key.
What many don't realize is that the chord changes have a unique sound related to their intervallic distance from the root and each other. By paying attention to those "sounds" the student can build the listening skills that enable recognition of chord progressions, licks, scales, etc.
These same skills and thought patterns also enable one to quickly understand and accomodate to a new tuning.
The "number system' is really just a notational or referential system for the underlying music theory, so they're not separate- the number system and the parts of music theory that relate to actually performing music are facets of the same thing, and actually the "unified field theory" that everyone is looking for to make playing any instrument easier, faster, and more rewarding.
Honestly, a basic grasp of music theory and the utilization of the number system is the single best thing an aspiring musician can do for their development.
Many students, and even advanced players, don't seem to realize that you can hear, or train yourself to hear, the "numbers" of a chord progression in a song as it scrolls by onstage or on a CD player. This is of course the foundation of being able to play "by ear", that so many find mysterious and elusive.
Eventually most students recognize that songs that have simple chord progressions are also easily played in other keys, and then that other similar songs can also be played in those other keys, and slowly.... gradually... build up the knowledge of how to transpose and use licks from one song in another, etc. There is a much faster route.
It's not opinion, but fact, that the number system can be used to label or notate the changes in any song, and that those numbers are the same for any key.
What many don't realize is that the chord changes have a unique sound related to their intervallic distance from the root and each other. By paying attention to those "sounds" the student can build the listening skills that enable recognition of chord progressions, licks, scales, etc.
These same skills and thought patterns also enable one to quickly understand and accomodate to a new tuning.
The "number system' is really just a notational or referential system for the underlying music theory, so they're not separate- the number system and the parts of music theory that relate to actually performing music are facets of the same thing, and actually the "unified field theory" that everyone is looking for to make playing any instrument easier, faster, and more rewarding.
Honestly, a basic grasp of music theory and the utilization of the number system is the single best thing an aspiring musician can do for their development.