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Topic: two 12s vs one 15 vs four 10s |
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 9:53 am |
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Food for thought: If you compare the speaker cone area based on the nominal radii (minus 1/2" to allow for the gasket/edge/frame), you will find the relative speaker areas to be as follows:
1 x 15 = 49 sq in.
2 x 12 = 60.5 sq in.
4 x 10 = 81 sq in.
What does that mean tone-wise? I don't know!
I have heard that 15" speakers are "slower" (compared to 12s) because of the increased cone size, which would mean a softer attack I suppose. So I guess 10s would be faster. I think smaller speakers have "tighter" low end. I tend towards using 2x12s (rather than a 15) if I am playing with a really LOUD band and need to cut through. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 10:05 am
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For whatever it's worth, I read somewhere the Curly Chalker liked to use 2 amps with four 10s in each.
My Music Man has 2 12s. The Peavey LTD I had that was stolen in '83 with 1 15 was brighter and made the steel sound, for lack of a better term, more defined. The 2 of them together sounded awesome.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 10:16 am
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| The Music Man probably has a different type of speaker than the Peavey did, which probably makes at least as much difference as the speaker size. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 11:43 am
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| I have 12" and 15" cabinets with JBL D120 and D130 speakers. I prefer the 15" although I can't say precisely why. I can say my back prefers a 15" vs. multiple 10" or 12" amp on the basis reduced weight. And does running multiple speakers vs. a single one require more power? |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 1:55 pm
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| One way to look at speaker choice is rarely brought up, yet it's critical. That is, "how much air is moved by the speaker( s)". Four 10s move more air than 1-15 or 2-12s. This was brought up in a previous response where the total surface areas of the three choices were compared. Put one way, you might be getting great tone from a 1-15 but you'll move more air with 4-10s. Bottom line: it's a consideration as important as tone. |
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Mike Bagwell
From:
Greenville, SC, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 2:30 pm
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John
Those numbers are way off. I think you forgot to multiply by pi.
Its pi R squared
area of a 15" circle is approx 176 sq"
area of two 12" circles is approx 226 sq"
area of four 10" circles is approx 312 sq"
Of course this also doesn't take in account the fact thata speaker is not flat but more like a cone. |
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Jonathan Cullifer
From:
Gallatin, TN
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 4:57 pm
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Also, a cabinet for 2x12 cabs will usually be bigger than a 1x15, and 4x10 the same thing.
The biggest difference I notice between each speaker size is the high end. Lows and mids are very much dictated by the size of the cabinet and the individual speaker's construction. Some 12s have good high frequency response, while others are suitable in subwoofer enclosures. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 5:09 pm
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Yup, Mike B. is correct - Area of circle = PI*R2. Approximate areas:
1-15: 177 sq in.
2-12: 226 sq in.
4-10: 314 sq in.
But that is just one factor. There are also
- Individual speaker differences: not all 15", 12", and 10" speakers are remotely the same as others of the same size, much less the same as different size speakers. I agree that, other things being the same, a 15" speaker will have more inertia and be slower to respond, but I don't think it's possible to make sweeping generalities.
- Multiple speaker and speaker/cabinet interactions. These kinds of interactions can radically change the response. Again, I think sweeping generalities are pretty futile. My experience is that 4-10" speakers do tend to interact with each other pretty strongly, in a way that I have generally found to make the bass response quite powerful (I have a BF Super Reverb and handmade '59 Bassman copy in the herd right now). Tightness or looseness depends on the speakers themselves and the cab design - e.g., a big difference between an open-back Super Reverb 4x10" cab with old CTS or Jensen speakers vs., let's say, a modern closed-back 4x10" bass enclosure with heavy-duty 10" woofers. Of course, it is key to make sure they're all in-phase.
 Mixing same-size speakers of different types can change also things, as compared to using 4 matched speakers.
- Interactions with the amp. I think the amp/speaker/cab interaction is very important.
For example, I have some hi-fi speakers with several (I think 6 each) 6.5" drivers, and the bass response is very strong but tight, owing to the driver and cabinet design.
The classic example of a strong-but-tight bass response with 10" speakers is the old Ampeg SVT "refrigerator cabinet", which had eight 10" speakers. See, e.g., http://www.ampeg.com/products/classic/svt810av/index.html. I've handled several of these over the years, and the speakers themselves were reasonably heavy-duty but not immensely so. Still, 8 of them in that huge, sealed cab powered by that insane SVT head put out a thunderous roar.
To me, dealing with speakers and cabs is a big part of the 'art' of amp design. Yeah, of course there are aspects of 'engineering' in this also - but sometimes the final result seems to defy conventional logic. The only way I know to be sure I'm gonna like what I hear is to pop the speaker(s) in and fire it up. My experience, anyway. |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 9:22 pm
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I left pi out of my calculations since I was addressing relative speaker area, and pi is a constant. I think the ratios will be the same whether you multiply by pi or not.
You are correct that I was wrong to list the numbers as sq in. units. Thank you for catching that.
I am completely aware of the formulae: pi*R squared and pie are round! |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 4 Feb 2011 11:40 pm
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I'd choose 4 x 10" over larger elements. Usually much cleaner sound through small elements, if the elements and cabinet are good and well matched.
I still prefer my old unit with a single 7" long-throw KEF (HiFi) speaker mounted in "closed" cab with a moderate horn and driving one passive KEF (HiFi) bass element and a double, tight, transmission line. An SS-amp built on the Otala reduced-TIM formula, capable of 80 Watt sinus and around 200 Watt 10 sec peaks, is built in.
Speaker(s) and amp don't weigh much, but the complete cabinet which is about same width, three times the depth and two third the height of an NV112, with transmission lines and horn-shape, weighs about 3 times as much as an NV112.
This cab is built for my PSG and has a non-matched ability to sound perfectly clean and powerful both near by and 200 meter away, and never breaks a sweat or a speaker.
Sounds like a HiFi unit without treble element (since that's what it is), and competes well in air-movement and audible output level with any instrument amp below 600 Watt I have been able to test it against.
Just thought I should mention it, since there's a lot of audible power to gain from an efficient cabinet/small speaker combination. Mine weigh twice as much as it has to for same power/sound, so an NV112 takes it place when I don't need the clean power. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2011 3:38 am
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I've often though that a 4X10 of the right design with the right speakers would probably work great. It's obviously not a problem of "15's have more bass"; there are a lot more professional bass players using combinations of 10's than 15's, I'd bet. 87.5% of human behavior is governed by historical accident, you can bet you boots that if "Buddy" had used a 4X10 (because it was all that was there) it would be industry standard.
It'd be a gas to plug a steel into an Ampeg SVT in a real big place I reckon - old Marshalls are great steel amps if you get the speakers straightened out - nix the flappy Celestions and run it to Black Widows or JBLs, the Marshall 100's have higher headroom than a Twin Reverb. And marry a gorilla, you're gonna need her to roadie. |
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