question from a new non-pedal convert

ken black · Post by **ken black** » 27 Dec 1999 10:22 pm

I own a Sho-Bud Super pro, and have never learned to play the pedal steel very well--but I am decent on a 6 string lap steel that I took lessons on --a long while ago. The nonpedal sound and feel appeals to me. I have what you may consider a silly question. What am I missing by using my 10 string c6th and e9th as a double neck non-pedal steel? This is opposed to buying a double 8 non-pedal steel for my pleasure. I get the slants and do not hear a difference in tone---admittedly I may have a tin ear. I get the fun of non-pedal--- and can use the pedals to occasionally hit a chord I might like. Enlighten me --do I need a non-pedal double 8 to really get more enjoyment. I just hack around as a hobby--not a pro.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 28 Dec 1999 7:58 am

You're not missing anything by using your pedal steel guitar without pedals. Those silly things just get in the way of making real music anyway

.
Seriously, if you're happy with the tone you get out of your Sho-Bud, there's no reason not to stay with it.

------------------
Brad's Page of Steel:
www.well.com/~wellvis/steel.html
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 28 Dec 1999 10:28 am

I totally agree w/ Brad on this one....Sho-Bud pickups have a wonderful tone, and there is no reason you should not use it for a double non pedal,you won't be missing a thing, and maybe gaining a thing or 2!!! as a matter of fact, I got a Maverick just for that reason, I've got a 10 string non pedal Sho-Bud!!!!
Aloha, Mike

Porter Fawcett · Post by **Porter Fawcett** » 28 Dec 1999 11:44 am

I agree with the above, they do make a great non pedal steel.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 28 Dec 1999 1:28 pm

I think the only thing you might get with <it>some</it> non-pedal guitars is wider string spacing than you have on the Bud. Seems to me that you have yourself an enhanced non-pedal steel, best of both worlds.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 30 Dec 1999 9:36 pm

Hey Ken! Every so often I get jumped on when I post a response but here I go ag'in! I jes'don't understand what all of the commotion is about whether it IS or IS not a steel guitar......based on whether it DOES or DOES NOT have pedals. I can play all night long on my Emmons dbl-10 C6th (8+4) w/out touching a pedal. No apologies to anyone about it either. Now, if they're playing more of the BIG TIME WESTERN SWING TUNES I'd look like a real Nerd if sat there an picked Hi'wian sounds all evening. Thus, I start standing on C6th pedals for that BIG FAT Chord sound that is appropriate for those tunes. When they're done, I go back to bar slants(both ways)and enjoy the evening. Keep your Sho-Bud. Push the pedals if/when you feel like it. It is FIRST.....a STEEL GUITAR. With or without pedals, it's a STEEL GUITAR. It is a STEEL GUITAR if you push a pedal once or a hundred times during the gig. Fit your playing style to the mood of the music being played and get on with it.
ENJOY Playing your instrument and give others the joy of listening to you.

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 31 Dec 1999 1:25 am

Boy I sure like the way you talk Ray. I'm with ya my brother.
Ricky

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 31 Dec 1999 7:57 am

The ONE problem you may find with slants is with adjacent strings, since the spacing is considerably narrower. Skipped-string slants should be no problem. Modern pedal steels have a longer scale than most lap steels, which may or may not be an issue for ya, depending on how much bar movement you're into.

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 31 Dec 1999 10:17 am

Aloha Guys,
I don't think the scale on a Sho-Bud super pro or the string spacing is much different than the "sacred"...Fender Stringmaster.
Happy New Year,
Mike

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 31 Dec 1999 10:37 am

I believe you are right, Mikey. My Stringmaster is only about 1/16" wider, 1-8 than my Carter and I think that it's safe to say that most PSGs are going to be within pretty close measurements. As I state above, some non-pedal guitars will have wider spacing. But I'm not sure which ones.
The Gibsons? I forget. Some input here from other guitar owners would be good

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 31 Dec 1999 11:50 am

I know my Rick has real wide spacing, as well as my Dickerson...I also have heard the new Sierra has a real wide spacing,
Aloha,
Mike

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Dec 1999 12:05 pm

When I was playing rock-a-billy, my main axe was a Sho-Bud Maverick with the pedals removed. I cut some long legs from aluminum tubes so that I could stand up and play it. It was very showy and versatile, and the extra 2 strings give me the range I needed to trade licks with the guitarist. I tuned to E13, low to high:

E G# B D E G# B C# E G#

It really sounded "right" for that kind of music. The close spacing didn't bother me - I just didn't do slants on adjacent strings.

------------------
Bobby Lee

www.b0b.com/products
Sierra Session S-12 E9th, Speedy West D-10, Sierra S-8 Lap

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 4 Jan 2000 2:58 pm

When it comes to slants.....string spacing is not really a problem once you've figured out what's going on. Okay? A 1st, 2nd & 3rd string slant on C6th, is usually not a problem HOWEVER, ("Bigsby long scale", Emmons long scale(?); and Ric short scales.)
however if it's a diminished chord (?) like in I Love You So Much It Hurts Me or JB's Twilight Blues, you merely use the tip of the bar on the desired fret and then by applying DOWNWARD pressure on the 2nd string, it will give you a straight bar affect on those 1/2nd strings while the 3rd sring is slanted down to the next lower fret.
Same technique applies if it's the 1st,2nd and 4th string; and/or 2nd,3rd and 5th string slants. With a little practice, it's fast and ACCURATE.....as near perfect as one can get and that's often better than a guy playing pedals that can't quite get in tune or fails to hold the bar straight across the strings, or fails to apply proper pressure on the pedal changers while "kicking" at those pesky things. etc.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 4 Jan 2000 3:00 pm

Sorrry! I meant to include a great big THANK YOU to Ricky Davis. I always appreciate a kind word so keep those cards and letters a comin' in, y'hear now!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 6 Jan 2000 4:55 pm

This is such an interesting slant on using a psg like it was a non pedal guitar. The reason it is of so much interest to me is I have done just that ever since the 50's when I first got my Fender 400.

What am I saying? Well, I do use pedals and I do have a D-10. Getting a brand new one soon S-12 on a 12-10 body. However, I am the world's biggest JB fan. OK, OK Ray Montee, I know you and Wayne Tanner think you are, but I really am

Anyway, because I am such a JB fan, I don't play C6 like anyone else. I play it like I imagine JB might have played it if he had ever gone to pedals. (doggone his hide, he coulda showed us all how the dang contraption shoulda been played and he wouldn't do it!

And doing this, I always learn the song with no pedals and no knee levers. AND then, I see if I can play it with out slanting using appropriate pedals and knee levers. It just amazes me how jerry's bar slants dictated the standard pedals on C6 to this day!

So my dear friends, by all means, the PSG can be played using no pedals and no knee levers. Of course the other posters are correct when they talk about string spacing and fret separation.

There is one other point. If you are trying to duplicate the sound of a pre-war bakelite Rick, forget it. It ain't gonna happen. I tried for almost 50 yrs. It just aint gonna happen. If you want that sound, you gotta git a Rick.

God bless,

carl

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 6 Jan 2000 8:55 pm

C.Dixon..... Enjoyed your comments! Since Wayne Tanner and I are professionals.....
you can "think" you are JB's number one fan but ..... go easy.
How did you tie us together? Just curious

Bob Kagy · Post by **Bob Kagy** » 6 Jan 2000 10:39 pm

Rich, Mikey, thanks for posting those numbers. I've always been curious and it's interesting to see how they came out compared to other steels.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 7 Jan 2000 5:36 am

Ray,

Wayne Tanner and I are dear, dear friends and have been for many years. He has, like with you, been in my home many times and we have shared, as have you, so many moments of nostalgia playing our "ricks" and dreaming we were the great master. Yeah right!

Incidently, Wayne has spoken of you many times over the years and I feel like I know you. Would love to include you among my list of precious friends.

One more tidbit. There are at least 4 people on this earth who eat, sleep and breathe Jerry Byrd. Of course, you, Wayne and myself. But there is yet a 4th. Maybe Wayne has spoken of him. His name is Garland Nash of Gainsville, Ga.

If you were ever to see and hear Garlan play, it would literally blow your mind. If you will give me your address I will send you a video of Garland Playing JB. And I mean beautiful.

take care friend.

And this, I carl dixon being of sound mind and body do solemly swear that I am JB's number 1 admirer.

haha

God bless,

carl

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 7 Jan 2000 6:21 am

Regarding string spacing:
I have both a double 8 24.5" 1956 Stringmaster and
a 1946 Gibson BR-4 6 string lap. The Gibson string spacing is much wider than the
Stringmaster. I can slant on adjacent strings with ease & accuracy on the Gibson.
I avoid those slants on the Stringmaster.

Question: I have never played a 1940's Fender, namely the Deluxe or Custom. Do these
guitars have a wider spacing than the Stringmaster? If so, I want one.

Bob Kagy · Post by **Bob Kagy** » 7 Jan 2000 11:25 am

My new Sierra measures 13/32's string center to center at the picking end. My 50's Stringmaster measures 6/16 (or 12/32's).

The Sierra feels like the difference is greater, but I don't know why. Scale length is 24 1/4 Sierra, 24 1/2 Stringmaster.

Upshot is that adjacent string slants are a bit easier on the Sierra especially at the lower frets.

IMHO the Sierra lends itself especially well to string pulls and bare finger picking, because the fat part of the fingers seem to fit between the strings more easily.

Both my 6 string fretted guitars have the same string spacing as the Sierra (which I'm guessing is not a coincidence). Interesting.

I've never had the pleasure of playing a Rick, and wonder what the string spacing is on it?[This message was edited by Bob Kagy on 08 January 2000 at 09:38 AM.]

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 8 Jan 2000 1:05 am

C.Dixon......WELCOME to the JERRY BYRD Fan Club! Nice getting to know you better. I'm honored that Wayne Tanner was kind enough to acknowledge knowing me. He's a great picker and a loyal JB fan. I've never had a request by anyone during my lifetime to be "considered one of their precious friends".
By all means, post me on that list. I can't stand rejection!
I have a hand written letter from JB himself acknowledging that I am indeed his No.#1 fan. Wayne and I have argued this point several times but I think I've convinced Wayne he's a dedicated #2. JB was a little more difficult and it wasn't until I sent him a 3 ft. x 3 ft. birthday card that he finally broke down and made this admission. He did ask me not to mention to anyone else as he didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. He is such a great and wonderful guy and thoughtful too!
By all means send me that video of Garland Nash. I'll owe you one of whatever, okay?
I send you an email with my address. Take care. Ray

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Jan 2000 8:51 am

when I get your email, the tape is in the mail. Some tidbits:

The tape was made about 4 years ago at a "Friends" house. It was at my behest that it be done with a bass and one of Atlanta's finest rythym players.

Garland played JB like you would not believe on an old Fender single neck layed in his lap. You will, in all likelyhood be very pleased with Garland's remarkable ability to emulate Jerry. Wayne gets the "timber" (Garland's words) and Garland gets the notes. Flawlessly! You will see.

Two things;

1. During the almost one hour taping, my video camera starting acting up. It has never done it since that time. So somewhere in the middle you will see some light purple stripes on the screen. It is not your VCR! Broke my heart! Incidently, as always, my "friend" had a few chosen words to say when the camera started acting up. But then, what are "friends" for huh?

2. The bass player (one of my dearest and true friends), had just received one of those danged electronic drummers. And of course nothing would do but he had to use the thing. Only one problem, it was too loud. no volume control on it! (my nemesis!). Again broke my heart.

But putting these two set-backs aside, the tape is quite good. And I believe you will really like it.

I sent a copy to Scotty and he called me and simply flipped over it. For some uncanny reason, Scotty had it that it is me playing. How in this world he got that idea, I do not know. Ain't NO way in thid world that I am as ugly as Garland Nash

. (Garland, only teasing).

Also, in the last millenium, the next millenium, or any "leniums", there is NO way that Carl could pick one note as good as Garland Nash! As a matter of fact, outside of JB and BE, ain't many players on earth that can pick as good as Garland Nash!

But if Scotty wants to put me in the league of a super picker like Garland, I will proudly accept it.

But it would not be correct.

God bless Ray, send it, and I will send it!

carl [This message was edited by C Dixon on 08 January 2000 at 08:56 AM.]

Bob Kagy · Post by **Bob Kagy** » 8 Jan 2000 9:40 am

My previous post has been edited and corrected: - both scale lengths were wrong, and should be 24+".

Apologies for confusing anyone. Thanks for catching it b0b.

Rich Young · Post by **Rich Young** » 8 Jan 2000 11:58 am

I just measured my Rick. It is a late 40's D8, metal body one. The strings are just shy of 6/16th at the bridge.

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 10 Jan 2000 4:23 pm

String spacing on my 30's Bakelite Rick (chrome covers, no tone control, 1.5" magnet) is 7/16" at the bridge...
Aloha,
Mike