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Topic: Beginner loves Lloyd Green at Panther Hall |
Tim Victor
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2010 8:01 pm |
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I'm a middle-aged guy who used to play out once upon a time, but I've mostly just been playing for my own entertainment and therapy lately--a multi-instrumentalist if you're charitable enough about what's meant by "able to play" a given instrument, and finally getting around to approaching steel.
I'm just starting to look at pedal steel guitars, not even really shopping yet so much as learning what I can about models and features. I love the playing of a lot of west-coast steelers, the Bakersfield Sound and Gram Parsons projects and the pedal steel's cameos in 70s pop songs, and while I can dig the vibe of the old Fenders and ZBs, I haven't discovered lots of love for that tone. I've also been quite taken by what I've seen of Marlen guitars, in no small part because I've lived most of my life within about 30 miles of Reidsville, NC, where they were made, yet I'd never heard of them. Emmons yes, Marlen no. They seem to have a great vintage vibe too.
But I just got a copy of Charlie Pride's Live at Panther Hall album with Lloyd Green playing and I've listened to it five or six times in a row. If I get ever to the point where I can play one, that's the sound that my inner hillbilly wants to be hearing. The album's been discussed a lot and I gather that he was playing a rack-and-barrel Sho-Bud into a silverface Twin Reverb.
So getting to the question: How close do I need to get to a 6139/6140 in order to make that little redneck inside me happy? In my six-string playing, I wouldn't consider myself a tone snob. I distinguish between Strat vs Tele vs Les Paul vs ES-335 of course, but I'm not one of those people who worry about what kind of insulation is on the wire going to the output jack and I doubt I could tell the difference between Alnico II and Alnico V if my life depended on it. And I have a couple of tube combo amps that I think are Twin-ish enough to get me started.
I've learned lately that a "Marlen don't sound like a Sho-Bud." Are there other brands and models that you'd put in that tone family? Or is it Sho-Bud ["Fingertip," not Professional, as Chris kindly pointed out. My bad! --Tim] or nothing?
Thanks!
Last edited by Tim Victor on 25 Dec 2010 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 24 Dec 2010 9:44 pm
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Hey Tom,
Lloyd used a Fingertip model on that concert, as well as on the multitude of sessions he did around that time. It was the precursor to the rack and barrel which first appeared on the Crossover and later on the Professional model. Replicating that Panther Hall tone is like finding the holy grail. Most of us just sit back and marvel at it.  Yes, the steel and amp were great quality. But Lloyd's touch is the true magic. Having said all that...I guess if you wanna get close in gear terms, a late 60's Twin and an older Sho~Bud will get you in the spirit for sure.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Dec 2010 7:27 am
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Hi Tom,
We all know and love the tone that Lloyd got on the Panther Hall album.
I hope you strive to get your own sound and tone. If it is that sound you like, you would get pretty close with a 6139. I owned one years ago and had I known what a tone monster it really was, I would have kept it.
The old Fender amps are pricey and somewhat hard to get.
My advice is always this: get yourself a popular amp of today like a Nashville 112, a decent guitar(if you are lucky enough to get hold of a 6139, sure) and the rest of the sound you are after is in your own two hands.
Have fun!
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Tim Heidner
From:
Groves, TX
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Posted 25 Dec 2010 7:36 am
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I've never heard that album, just looked it up and I can get a used one starting at $80, new for $158!  |
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Tim Victor
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 Dec 2010 1:09 pm
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Many thanks for the replies!
(Seems I've turned into "Tom" here. Can I make up new names for you guys too? <grin>)
OK, so maybe it wasn't a great idea to point to such an iconic recording. But that really was what I was listening to and it's a good reference, very cleanly recorded with Lloyd's steel way up in the mix and he plays a lot on every song. I'm not that much of a fan of late 1960s Nashville country so I don't have a lot of other benchmarks for that type of sound. I need to keep listening a lot more, I know.
But I was definitely trying to avoid getting into the realm of Holy Grails and Tone Quests. The Internet forum format seems to want to pull discussions towards tone voodoo and "that sound" and that's fine, but right now I'd like to stay as far away from that briar patch as I can. As you say, I'll never have Lloyd's hands. And sure, I sound like myself whether I'm playing an SG or a Strat or a J-45 or a mandolin. But there are also some pretty obvious differences from one instrument to another and that's what I'm trying to work out right now--as a beginner who's just starting to learn about brands and models, but who can usually hear the difference, for instance, between Lloyd's Sho-Bud and someone on a Fender 400 or a ZB. Broad strokes, not the Nth degree...
Chris's recommendation is something that I pretty much took for granted. Yeah, I'd expect that an older Sho-Bud would sound like an older Sho-Bud. I was wondering more about what else might be in that range, in very, very rough terms, as in Tele vs. Strat vs. Rickenbacker, or J-45 vs. D-28.
But maybe that's an adjustment I need to make when thinking about pedal steels. If a friend who was learning six-string guitar had been listening to Live at Fillmore East and was taken by Duane Allman's sound, I wouldn't tell him to go buy an original '58 Les Paul Standard. But maybe the pedal steel world is different that way. While Lloyd's actual D-10 Fingertip might be kinda hard to come by, I guess there are still a few of them around in roughly the same price range as other pro-quality pedal steels. Is it true that just getting a vintage Sho-Bud would be as practical an approach as anything?
Amp-wise, I'm not really shopping right now. The first "good amp" I owned was an early 70s 100-watt Peavey tube combo with two twelves, and I've still got it in the closet. It's not precisely a silverface Twin Reverb but I think that's roughly what they were going for, and I'll give it a try for starters. I can also go through my Deluxe Reverb or even a JCM-800 Marshall for variety's sake.
Again, broad strokes. And I sure don't have room for another amp right now! I'm even worried about where to put the pedal steel if I get one. |
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Tim Victor
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 Dec 2010 1:11 pm
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| Tim, it looks like Panther Hall (technically I guess it's Charlie Pride In Person, Live at Panther Hall) is out of print at the moment. But if you drill down on Amazon, there are used LPs there for as little as $1.99. And I'd bet that used CD stores, flea markets, thrift stores, etc, would yield a copy in some format pretty quickly. I don't think it's a rare recording at all. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 25 Dec 2010 4:55 pm
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With all respect, I'm not sure I would steer an entry-level steel fan to a vintage guitar that needed refurbishment to play solidly and well. That strikes me as more a pursuit for a later time when ability and tastes catch up to the vagaries and complexities of vintage gear.
If you're going for a ShoBud tone, I might suggest something in a wood-body modern guitar, like ShoPro or Mullen to get you in that general tonal bag with up to date mechanics. In my teaching experience, one of the biggest stumbling blocks for new students is getting hung up in clunky mechanics, where they can't tell if it's the student or the guitar that's out of tune, or making the "wrong noise".
I'd always recommend a newer, properly working, low-maintenance guitar to learn on, and saving the pursuit of vintage gear and tone for the growth that comes after initial exposure. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 25 Dec 2010 8:13 pm
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What Mark said ! Tone on a pedalsteel is much much less reliant on the instrument than electric guitar. Think classical violin instead of guitar. A Stradivarius will have the same sound a plywood student model until the player puts in years of serious practice.
If you are ready to hear the other best tone ever order this CD from the forum:
http://steelguitarmusic.com/music/buddyemmons.html#C062
The Buddy Emmons "black" album has ruined many a steel player forever, including me ! Just insanely perfect everything.
_________________
Bob
Last edited by Bob Hoffnar on 25 Dec 2010 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Leslie Ehrlich
From:
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Posted 25 Dec 2010 8:20 pm
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Tone is in the pickup, the amp, and the speaker. It took me years to figure that out, but that's where it is.
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Sho-Bud Pro III + Marshall JMP 2204 half stack = good grind! |
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Tim Victor
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2010 6:11 pm
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Great comments! Thanks everyone. Like I said, it's really early days for me but I'm taking it all in. I'm not going to pull the trigger on an old instrument for a couple thou based on one or two forum comments, so don't be shy. It's my call at the end of the day.
My other weakness besides musical instruments is buying tools (oh, and books too) and I'm no stranger to old, cranky, fiddly mechanical things. Do I want to try to learn a technically demanding instrument while dealing with that? Do I want to try to learn a technically demanding instrument while not dealing with that? I guess I need to work that out for myself.
[John Billings]
| Quote: |
| Find a Fingertip. Send it to James Morehead. Be happy! |
I can handle the first two no problem. That third item on your list is the one that usually trips me up.
That thread you mention is one that I found early this month when looking for info on Marlens because there's some discussion of them in it. I skimmed the whole thread at the time, but I just went back and read it all again and got a lot more out of it this time.
Beautiful stuff!! If not right now then I hope to get one at some point, for sure.
[Bob Hoffnar]
See, here's the thing: I have all the respect in the world for his talent and his role to the development of the instrument, and I've had that one on my shopping list for a while. And I just found a site online (looks like it's probably illegal) with audio samples of all the tracks, and I'm in awe of his intonation, vibrato, dynamics, and control of the bar and pedals.
But the timbre of that instrument just isn't my thing. Those two albums are great examples of two very different sounds, and I don't think the difference boils down to one guy having great technique and the other not. There's a "boing, boing, boing" in the treble of the Emmons that I've noticed with other Emmons players as well and I just don't think I'd want that.
I'd love to love Emmons. I gather that they're really solid and they're always easy to find, and the company's still in business which is awesome. I can even drive to the shop in about a half an hour. Sadly, while my heart says North Carolina, my ears say Tennessee.
Anyway, keep 'em comin' y'all! |
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Chris Harvey
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2010 2:45 pm Tone n' Stuff
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The panther hall and little darlin' recordings..epic. I'm a newbie as well (only a few years)and I absolutely agree with everyone. I'd definitely pick up a new guitar (Sho Pro, Jackson, GFI, Mullen etc). I love my fingertip sho-bud; it has a one of a kind tone (especially through my tube amp), but I spent considerable time digging around the guts of the sho-bud to ensure it'll perform when at a gig. It's now set up great and stays in tune wonderfully - no issues. That said, there's nothing like my GFI thru a session 400; with that rig you can rest assured you'll show up to the gig and everything will fire right up(and you won't have to haul around a toolbox) I love tone,but also spend as much time as possible practicing 'cause that's what it's all about:-) Good luck! James Morehead is the guy to talk to.
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Tim Victor
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2010 4:26 pm
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| Oh, man, drool city! It's even lit like a photo shoot. Many thanks for the recommendation, Chris, and have fun playing that thing. |
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Tim Victor
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2010 10:38 pm
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I posted this in the Buddy Miller topic but I'll include it here too. Robert Plant's re-formed Band of Joy includes Buddy, Patty Griffin, and Darrell Scott. Here courtesy of BBC Radio 2 (or perhaps despite them) is a new version of "Houses of the Holy":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T0qdrf1_Cs
I didn't know that Darrell Scott played pedal steel but I'm thinking that could be a Sho-Bud LDG, (My reason for mentioning it in this topic...) Can someone check me on that?
I didn't see him getting off "the Garcia strings" but unlike some part-timers (Ron Wood on "Faraway Eyes" comes to mind--instead of improving with practice, he seems to actually get worse every year) Darrell keeps it clean and I think it fits in well. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 1:43 am
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Thanx for the kind words, Chris. That's one killer rig you got there. And good/wise words to new comers.
If you like the vintage tone of yesterday, and really want to step into the older equipment scene, it is very do-able, especially if you can buddy up with someone who is familiar with the old 'buds, ZB's and early Emmons. They can help you learn the equipment, and once you get familiar, you will do just fine--and be in tone heaven.
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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Darrell Owens
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 10:13 am
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| Quote: |
| There's a "boing, boing, boing" in the treble of the Emmons that I've noticed with other Emmons players as well and I just don't think I'd want that. |
Tim, One man's "boing" is another man's BLING!
Good luck on your search for tone. As has been stated before, I think you will find what you are looking for in your own two hands.
_________________
Zum Steel, Little Walter Amp, Benado Steel Dream
Darrell Owens
www.darrellowens.com |
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Paul Arntson
From:
Washington, USA
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 2:44 pm
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"To my ear, the sound is ever so slightly overdriven,"
When I was still doin' studio gigs, I'd take a cd of Lloyd's Little Darlin' Years with me. Most engineers were not familiar with how a steel should sound. I played the cd at a Zaza session, and said, "See! Clean." They both looked at me, and said, "JB, that's not that "clean." And, of course, they were right. Tube sweetness! |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 5:48 pm
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Yes, the strong steel pickup hits the amp hard and overdrives it slightly. A twin at 80-100 watts is perfect for this type of breakup.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 5:58 pm
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| Darrell Owens wrote: |
Good luck on your search for tone. As has been stated before, I think you will find what you are looking for in your own two hands. |
Just a difference of opinion-------------
If tone was in your hands, you wouldn't need a steel guitar.
Each steel guitar has it's own "voice". It's up to you and your hands to bring out the best "that" guitar has to offer. If this is not true, Why does Lloyd stick with his LDG when he can have any OTHER guitar on the planet? Lloyd tried a couple other brand guitars in the past and came back to his LDG. If WHAT guitar you play is unimportant, why did he come back to the LDG?
So, do not dismiss thy equipment. But do not dismiss developing "skill", to bring that sweet tone out of thy equipment. Just a difference of opinion.
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 6:01 pm
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| Chris LeDrew wrote: |
| Yes, the strong steel pickup hits the amp hard and overdrives it slightly. A twin at 80-100 watts is perfect for this type of breakup. |
To add to Chris's fine observation, Shobuds have a wonderful harmonic "growel" going on, too. A fender tube amp does a fantastic job of displaying those harmonics. JMHO
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 6:10 pm
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Tim,
For another taste of Lloyd's amazing tone find a copy of Johnny paycheck's The Real Mr. Heartache: The Little Darlin' Years. Please don't listen to some mp3 net p to p crap. The music is so degraded you actually will not hear what Lloyd did. Its like people thinking they know what the Grand Canyon looks like because they saw it on there iphone.
_________________
Bob |
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Darrell Owens
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 7:37 pm
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| Quote: |
| If tone was in your hands, you wouldn't need a steel guitar. |
James, You got me. I guess I understated the obvious. I have a Zum Hybrid and a room full of effects and amps. However, I still think the single most important component of a "signature" tone is the player.
_________________
Zum Steel, Little Walter Amp, Benado Steel Dream
Darrell Owens
www.darrellowens.com |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 7:57 pm
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| Darrell Owens wrote: |
| I have a Zum Hybrid and a room full of effects and amps. However, I still think the single most important component of a "signature" tone is the player. |
And you are absolutly right with a statement like this, my friend. It's like an equation, which works when all neccessary parts are gathered together at the right time. Atleast from my tiny perspective.
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2010 8:45 pm
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Tim,
Yes it is a LDG on the Band of Joy video..... and yes there is a lot of hanging out on the Jerry strings. I have played quite a bit in a rock context, and to get through that kind of stage mix, I spend a lot of time hanging out there too. Not a lot of room for nuance, and sometimes I feel like I'm playing a really heavy, overly complicated lap steel.
Judging by your comments viz the Emmons, I think that you are looking for that steel sound that isn't really straight country, but more in the blues/rock vein. A Sho~Bud and a Fender will get you there.... Many ZBs have done that job..... but do look at modern wood body/wood neck guitars too. My first call guitar is a '75 Sho~Bud S-10 that has been totally rebuilt, so I don't have to worry about it. My second/fly date guitar is a Williams wood body, wood neck with an original 705 which can handle the rock chores.
I do agree about the Ronnie thing.... and he does feature a very nice Emmons..... |
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