S10 vs SD10 Pad vs No Pad

Mike Davidson · Post by **Mike Davidson** » 26 Dec 2010 6:31 pm

In contemplating a future purchase I wonder about others opinions regarding S10 vs SD10, pad vs no pad. Did the pad come about to reduce fatigue or fill in on a conversion? I wonder the pros and cons including weight, posture, drag on the pad, comfort, good form, bad form fatigue or prevention of it.

From people that have played both.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 26 Dec 2010 6:46 pm

I think an SD-10 makes you look more authoritative when you rest your elbows on the pad and shake your bar at the band leader.

Mike Davidson · Post by **Mike Davidson** » 26 Dec 2010 7:13 pm

I thought the steel player was the leader... lol

bob Ousby · Post by **bob Ousby** » 26 Dec 2010 8:00 pm

Deleted.

Brett Day · Post by **Brett Day** » 26 Dec 2010 10:12 pm

My new Jackson BlackJack Custom is an SD-10 with a pad, and for me, the pedals are easier to see and they're smoother too. The pad works well for me so it's so easy to play. When I'm waiting to play at a show I rest my right hand on the pad with the bar in my left hand on the strings.

Brett

Eric Philippsen · Post by **Eric Philippsen** » 26 Dec 2010 10:56 pm

S10? SD10? It's strictly personal preference on that.

I have an SD10 but it feels odd and uncomfortable. Now you would think I'd like it because 9 out of 10 gigs I use a straight D10 setup. Go figure. But when I'm feeling lazy I take an S10 and love it.

Dave O'Brien · Post by **Dave O'Brien** » 27 Dec 2010 6:38 am

Jeff Newman, a very famous and successful teacher/player had an interesting opinion on this subject if someone more literate than I can post a link to the article it may be helpful to you.

Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 27 Dec 2010 7:08 am

bob Ousby wrote:I tried a D10 and felt that my feet were too far underneath it to get a visual.

How are you able to watch your LEFT foot and your RIGHT hand at the same time?

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 27 Dec 2010 7:54 am

Mike - below is a post I wrote in an earlier thread regarding the reason for the first SD-10, which became known as the Sho-Bud LDG:

Zane, here is the straight scoop on Lloyd and the invention of the LDG and the rear pad, it is from an article from the Journal Of Country Music which came out I believe in early 2006. Singer/songwriter Robbie Fulks wrote the article, and he has had Lloyd play on a number of his recordings. Of course Lloyd played a double neck guitar prior to this, so he was used to the ergonomics already. I located one of my old posts:

Quote:
Lloyd Green, in the fine article about him in The Country Music Journal, had this to say about the development of the Sho-Bud LDG, SD10:
'"I played sessions in suits up until the late 60's, and the C6 neck would unravel the sleeves of my coat. Well I went to my book and counted 595 sessions on the E9 neck in the preceding 12 months. In other words, in my last six hundred sessions, I could only account for five on the C6. So in 1973, I went to Sho-Bud and talked to Shot Jackson about the idea of changing my rear neck to a pad." Six pedals and other parts from the little used neck were put in a plastic bag and weighed in at 18 pounds. The resulting design of the LDG model, with its black Naugahyde pad over an absent fretboard, aims to preserve the double-neck's tone benefits, while eliminating entirely its high-tensile coat abraders, or "strings."

Reduced, on the face of it, to half of the musical hardware of most of his peers, Green proceeded to play all shades of country-including western swing (ironically) on his first post neck removal session for Danny Davis-with a single tuning. "Most (swing) players think you're impotent on E9," Green says. "You can play anything you want on E9. The problem lies in avoiding THINKING. You don't have to think as much with more pedals, more necks, more redundancy." He uses pre-pedal era slants to achieve subtle effects at a tight-rope walker risk level most players would just as soon not assume.'

Rick Winfield · Post by **Rick Winfield** » 27 Dec 2010 7:54 am

If you need to watch your feet, you need more practice time.Thats's one of my 1st lessons.Maybe you need to stagger your pedals so you can feel you foot placement. I played a D12, used my right foot for pedals 7 & 8, and my left for the rest.I often switched back and forth bwetween necks, to get the chords/sound, I wanted. I don't consider myself a "good Player", but I get what I need.
I had pedal 4 raised, ped 6 lower than 5, and 7 higher than than 8.Nothing drastic, just enough to locate, should you get lost
Good luck
PS: I feel a SD10 has more body to resonate on
Rick

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 27 Dec 2010 8:10 am

The one reason which justifies a single neck guitar IMHO is less weight to haul around.

I don't believe there is any tone loss at all. My single neck p/p sounds as good (or better) than my D-10. Same w/ the Zum D-10 vs S-12U.

For me, no pad.......it's just excess baggage

Larry Allen · Post by **Larry Allen** » 27 Dec 2010 11:03 am

I like the S10 no pad as it's lighter and as my old eyes change it's easier to focus on the top strings with the guitar closer.....tried them both....Larry

Mike Davidson · Post by **Mike Davidson** » 27 Dec 2010 7:45 pm

Thanks for the inputs and I'm still looking for more. Bob I see you deleted your post. No need to. I am a newbie and I watch my feet to see if I'm even on the right pedals. I know you are not supposed to and I figure I'll get better as time goes by. I also figure if it wasn't for us newbies then the pro's wouldn't know how good they are...lol. Thank you, also, for the mention of the Sho Pro guitar. That is a nice guitar that I had never seen.

Mark I see a reference to Zane King. I think it was a video by him that got me to thinking about this in the first place. I also think the video was implying that the pad instigated improper form and I just wondered what other peoples experiences were. Especially as I see that some guitar makers, such as Mullen, don't even make an S10 and I wondered why.

Dave Simonis · Post by **Dave Simonis** » 27 Dec 2010 7:49 pm

I'm playing a 3/4 sized rear pad on a SD10 on my Desert Rose. The newer DR's have an even smaller pad. I guess sort of an in between if body size is the issue. I like the smaller sized body depth w/pad

I also know a few out here were making bolt on pads for S10's - so if you still wanted a rear pad and you bought an S10...you could add one and remove it whenever you wanted.

Danny Letz · Post by **Danny Letz** » 27 Dec 2010 7:59 pm

I have a S-10, a SD-10 and a D-10. It really doesn't enter my mind when I sit down to play. It does when I have to lift them with my blown back. Some people say that the knee levers are to far or not far enough under the guitar on S-10's. I think one thing that comes into play is that the manufacturer doesn't have to really have but one basic kind of endplates to make SD-10's and D-10's. I think Bruce Zumsteg once told me there was a minimum order on endplates and he didn't get enough calls for S-10's to justify the order.

Michael Dulin · Post by **Michael Dulin** » 29 Dec 2010 8:32 am

I prefer a single body s10 no pad. Less weight and better freedom of movement. You have nothing to interfere with either hand. Ask any piano teacher, freedom of movement and proper hand placement is very important to good technique. MD

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 29 Dec 2010 9:37 am

Michael Dulin wrote:I prefer a single body s10 no pad. Less weight and better freedom of movement. You have nothing to interfere with either hand. Ask any piano teacher, freedom of movement and proper hand placement is very important to good technique.

Piano is not entirely comparable to steel guitar. The right hand, in particular. Lloyd Green has stated that he rests his right arm on the pad, not the left. I find that I do the same. (There any close correspondence between what Lloyd Green does and what I do ends!)

And what about all those D10 players? Does having a back neck seem to have hindered Emmons, Day, Chalker, Hughey, Jernigan, et al. when playing the front neck?

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 29 Dec 2010 11:50 am

As far as I can tell, the only advantage an SD has over a single neck is that the knee levers can be placed further away from your thighs, and closer to the actual knees, thus making them easier to activate.

I had an SD 12 for a while, (the one I mentioned before which was stolen in '82 or '83,) and I liked it. But aside from its triple raise changer, I didn't think it was any better than my green S-12. (The one in my avatar.) After it was stolen I went back to playing the green guitar, and didn't really notice much difference.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 29 Dec 2010 12:15 pm

I have an S-10 and I went that route originally because the advice I received that recommended the configuration won out over the SD-10, sort of majority rules. And the advisors were from the school of "S-10 encourages better technique."

So never having owned a guitar with a pad I couldn't advise one way or the other, but I kind of like the "simplicity" of the S-10, sort of an "understated" appearance.

Rick Winfield · Post by **Rick Winfield** » 29 Dec 2010 2:49 pm

Which Majority are you speaking of ?
Better techniue is a mind set that is either appplied and adhered to or not, depending on s10,
sd10 or d10
to each his own
I respect all serious opinions
Rick

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 29 Dec 2010 3:22 pm

At the time I had a choice of several GFI Ultras that were new, at very good prices. There were S-10's and SD-10's. I hadn't played a pedal steel since I was a kid when I dabbled in it and took some lessons for a bit after about two-and-a-half years of lessons on lap steel - it had been a long time. I solicited advice here and from a couple other folks that are players.

The majority opinion of those whom responded to my question suggested the S-10, they felt it was less likely for me to develop bad habits, in this case the feeling was that resting one's forearms on the pad may not be the best for technique, because you might have a tendency to bend at the wrist downwards by always resting your forearms on the pad. A lesser number of folks thought that was not necessarily the case and it's good to have the pad for comfort, and anytime you are more comfortable playing an instrument you are apt to enjoy it more.

I honestly don't know what is the best choice since as I wrote earlier I have never owned an SD-10, but I solicited the advice, and that is what I came away with.

Actually, I liked the idea of the pad, but I went with what most of the folks thought was the best route.

When you solicit advice on something where you lack expertise, you weigh the responses and make your decision.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 29 Dec 2010 3:56 pm

I can't stand SD guitars. I think they promote bad posture as far as your playing approach. But,,,, I've got skinny legs, and that might affect my reasoning. Lloyd did this out of necessity, and he is comfortable with this. He created a "Fashion" that others have followed. If I'm not playing, my hands are in my lap. When playing, I don't have to lean over a bunch of unused space. My '74 has 6 knee levers, and I have no trouble using them. But, body size and shape may make SD guitars more comfortable for many players.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 29 Dec 2010 4:18 pm

Not to get off the subject John, but I don't recall ever seeing that photo of the underside of your guitar. What a thing of beauty, and a marvel of American design and engineering!

And no pad...

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 29 Dec 2010 4:27 pm

My Desert Rose has a small pad that weighs almost nothing,My arms and hands hardly touch the pad,I've never heard that an S-10 is better for your technique...Besides my guitar is inbetween an S and an SD.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 29 Dec 2010 4:37 pm

Thanks Mark! It's a wonderful guitar, thanks to Ricky and Coop. And I can sit up straight, no hunching over. No reaching.

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