Please Explain Why Padded Knee Levers Are Not In Use

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 26 Dec 2010 1:17 pm

I've been using padded knee levers for approximately 28 years. I am set against subjecting my legs to the discomfort that I feel in standard knee levers, particularly those that require firm pressure to raise and lower string pitches. Could they be classified as a major screwup by designers?

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 26 Dec 2010 1:33 pm

Don't think so Bill, usually if there is strong enough demand, manufacturers will supply. Apparently not enough demand for such a feature. Is there room for improvement on some, probably, but not until there's a major fuss over it. Is there a particular brand you're referring to? Have you talked to the builder? Unless the builder gets feedback he probably assumes there isn't a problem.

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 26 Dec 2010 1:34 pm

Bill, I find the angle iron style that a major brand uses to be very uncomfortable and while it works properly, I prefer the wing/flag style additions seen on Zum and Derby and other brands.

If the levers are adjusted properly I don't see the need for any padding. I also don't see the need to play in socks or barefoot to "feel" the pedals.. but that's just me..

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 26 Dec 2010 1:47 pm

Dickie,

I haven't seated myself to some of the latest models. All those that I've tried have failed miserably in approaching the comfort zone. The additional consideration on the part of the builders would be very much appreciated; from my point of view.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 26 Dec 2010 2:01 pm

Bill, again, unless there is demand for such a thing, it's not gonna happen. When you order a new steel, I'm sure most builders would take into consideration (within reason) any suggestion you would want to make so that your steel would be comfortable to you. Not to say they won't charge for it but I would think they would work with you to make this happen. You won't know until you try.

Richard Damron · Post by **Richard Damron** » 26 Dec 2010 2:17 pm

Bill -

I have a GFI D-10 which comes fitted with what Gene Fields calls a "wing" on the RKR. It measures about 2"X3" and does nothing but spread the pressure out over a greater area and virtually eliminates the need to "hunt" for the lever with your foot operating the pedal. There's no reason why it couldn't be fitted to all of the levers. Very comfortable.

Respectfully,

Richard

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 26 Dec 2010 2:31 pm

Richard,

I'm not aware of a concerted effort to eliminate the knee to metal feature of the pedal steel guitar. I think that there is justification in labeling current and past knee levers a major screwup on the part of the builder who chooses to ignore other methods to insure comfortable usage.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 26 Dec 2010 2:41 pm

Bill, to me, the subject of comfort is a personal taste. What may be comfortable to you may not be to me. You can't just go off on all steels and say that the maker screwed up. Until people complain in mass that this is the case, it's just your opinion, nothing more. If you want a guitar comfortable to you then get it made to your specifications. Just that simple. I don't see the need to make a mountain out of a molehill. To me you're making a charge based on opinion (yours) and not fact (everyone else).

If I had a guitar that was uncomfortable to me, I would:
1. Work with the builder and see if there were some resonable mods that could be made.
2. Work with some local folks to see if we could come up with something
3. Sell or trade the guitar for something better

Bill, you can't call this a manufacturing screw-up because it's not to your liking. Just my humble opinion FWIW.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 26 Dec 2010 2:54 pm

I can see where some would prefer a softer surface on the knee levers. I have owned 7 pedal steels and only two have had levers that bothered me. My first steel. a ZB S-10, had 2 levers that had a "step" that would hit my leg and cause some discomfort. I added some foam on them. The 3 levers I later added to my left knee were a newer style and straight with no discomfort. The other was a Sho~Bud Professional with teardrop levers. Everyone I played, my legs would hit toward the bottom where the teardrop was and that was uncomfortable. All of the guitars I have played with straight knee levers have been OK, like my Carter. I've never felt the need for flags, as the knee levers were always in ideal locations for me. No searching for levers.

Except for those early ZB levers and the teardrop levers Sho~Bud used, I don't think the designs are a screwup. Of course, the teardrops look so cool. It would be nice for some if the manufacturers made a good looking, good fitting soft attachment for their levers as an option. It would be better than wrapping some foam around the lever and securing it with electrical tape.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 26 Dec 2010 3:50 pm

I really appreciate the efforts made by members to explain how they view the universal knee lever. It undoubtedly has been taken for granted by those who are in great physical condition. Those who do not have a lot of muscled padding, may have a different story to tell. This problem is similar to someone raising their voice when faced with strong evidence presented that calls for a change in traditionalism.

Dick Sexton · Post by **Dick Sexton** » 26 Dec 2010 3:54 pm

I believe it may be a newer building direction, knee levers being built more uncomfortable. This ZB obviously had fairly comfortable knee levers, looks to be over an inch of material against the leg... http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=195758

The older Dekleys used knee levers that were about one inch wide. The Marlen I have, has the Wide Side of the knee lever material against the leg, about 5/8". Even that can be a little uncomfortable at times. Carters have the wide side of the knee lever material, about one inch, against the leg.

For the most part, the newer and most pricey brands, use the narrow edge of the knee lever material against the leg(with a few exceptions). They even look uncomfortable.

I might concede, that if a builder were trying to cram six or more levers under the body, be reachable by the player and fold up, the use of the narrow edge of the material against the leg might be the only way possible without the need for redesign or added expense.

I solved my lack of comfort problem by building removable knee lever flags with one and a half inches of material against my legs. Nice!

On this one Bill, I'm squarely in your camp. No excuse for lack of comfort if at all possible.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 26 Dec 2010 4:01 pm

Bill, I disagree. To me, you're trying to twist this into some kind of discrimination or bias case (politics not allowed here). The way knee levers are made apparently does not affect enough people to make this to mass appeal. It is also not right to try to make all manufacturers add extra cost to their products to accomodate one or a few. Cases like yours should be viewed on an individual basis, and not across the board. Everyone else cannot be burdened by the cost of adding your requirements to their steel. If you need something different than what is standard then you need to work that out with the builder when you order. Simple as that. My opinion FWIW.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 26 Dec 2010 4:41 pm

Dickie,

I must applaud your contentious demeanor. My purpose is none other than to pass on what I perceive to be a measure of liberty taken on the part of the builders of fine instruments. Perhaps, there is a better than average chance that some builders of our instrument of choice, may not focus on the levers as would those who play them with unreserved dedication. If that premise could be followed up with a series of exactness inquiries, I feel that someone has a lot of explaining to right what I feel is wide open to criticism.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 26 Dec 2010 4:53 pm

I'm thinking of adding something by way of cushioning material or extensions or both to my knee levers. I don't know whether I'm a strange shape, but I never feel the knee levers are in the right place, and I wish there were more adjustment to them. Some steel guitars have pedals which can be adjusted sideways on the pedal bar, and this is a good idea. I'm also wondering why car pedals always have rubber coverings but steel guitar pedals never do.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 26 Dec 2010 4:54 pm

Bill, a steel guitar is like a lot of other things I buy. I don't necessarily like some of the design features on my car, but the large percentage of it is something that works fine for me. Same thing for a house, you may not like certain features of it, but by and large, it works for you. If you need changes to your steel to make it comfortable for you, then that's your responsiblity and no one else's. When you order it, get it exactly like you want it but expect to pay for it as well, I think that's reasonable. It has nothing to do with the manufacturer intentionally making a steel that's uncomfortable for you. If you need something different, then you pay for it.

Steels already cost a pretty penny, we don't need to be adding any extra costs that aren't needed.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 26 Dec 2010 5:35 pm

This ZB obviously had fairly comfortable knee levers, looks to be over an inch of material against the leg...

Those are the later ZB levers (Mid 70's?). They were comfortable, but the ones they used before that (early 70's) were not.

Dana Blodgett · Post by **Dana Blodgett** » 26 Dec 2010 5:45 pm

I always play bare footed due to health issues . I have lost some sensitivity on the bottom of my feet(non-reversable) and feel the need to "feel" the pedals! I haven't gotten shocked yet! I also feel I play better and don't get hung up on other pedals with my big wide feet. If I play with my Reeboks on I hit more than what I was aiming to engage!I am sure others do too.Each to his own. It's like if you want to wear three finger picks-Go for it!
All my knee levers are the old tear drop(Sho-Bud)style installed by J.Palenscar and built by J.Morehouse They are high caliber and very comfortable.I can engage my "D"lever if I want to for long passages ie."Harborlights(E9)". It's important to have them set up properly by someone to fit you specifically.

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 26 Dec 2010 5:56 pm

I purchasesd a steel that came to me with golf club handlegrips on the kneelevers (ShoBud LDG) they slipped on and stayed on without any adhesive,and looked real clean. Previous to that I put some bicycle hand grips on. they come in every density,configuration and color you might want. Think motorcycle stores as well. Also seen thin but dense sheet of foam (like a scuba suit) glued to a flag on a lever.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 26 Dec 2010 6:10 pm

I have actually been toying with the idea of padding my knee levers. This is born out of the fact that when I see a player play in his shorts on a less than hot day there has to be that initial shock of lower temperature. It could be virtually eliminated with padding. Also, some KL changes can be somewhat stiff and you can feel the corners of the KL on your leg. Not comfy.

My concern with this idea is: Where would one get material that is strong enough to stand up to years of abuse? I am thinking: What does sweat from bare legs do to the vinyl? Also: The constant pressure from the leg on the vinyl would most certainly wrinkle and break the vinyl after a short time? And what about the adhesive. It would have to be strong and adhere for years and years.

By the way , I can't think of any supplier of such an item. Say it is 5/8 wide by 3/8 thick by 5" long.

But I can see where it would be an eye catcher. Say you color-match the padding to the color of your guitar, or the color of the arm pad on an SD10...

Maybe the upholsterers among us would have ideas and suggestions?

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 26 Dec 2010 6:38 pm

Hey Bill, Just kiddin' with ya here but seriously, anything that will slide over the lever will disperse the pressure.
Throw a piece of cardboard in a pocket protecter and we're in biz, no?

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 26 Dec 2010 6:45 pm

I have foam tubing on my knee levers. Kinda like this:

http://www.grabongrips.com/foam_tubing.php

It all started when I got my current steel and decided that I didn't want separate left knee clusters for each neck, yet I wanted every change that I had ever wanted to try, so every KL does double duty on both necks. Consequently, some levers have pretty hard action by some standards. I don't mind. I sit up a little higher than most with the back legs hiked up so there is a tilt towards the front. To me that allows for more leverage, and more room in general for my feet and knees. YMMV. I never think that my action is too hard to play accurately or with sensitivity.

At any rate, I first tried the foam on the KL with the hardest action, and eventually I ended up putting it on them all.

Yes it might look a little ghetto, and maybe a little nerdy, but after all, I'm the one who's playing it.

To keep the foam from slipping, all I do is wrap a couple big rubber bands around the lever and then slip the foam over that to keep it from slipping off. Hey it works for me....and yes, it's great for playing in shorts in the summer!

Richard Paul · Post by **Richard Paul** » 26 Dec 2010 9:25 pm

I've seen flags on some steel, so I tried one. have added two more. what a diffrence. I'll have to try some padding. Thanks for the Idea Bill.
The flags made it so much easyer, pads should inprove it more.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 26 Dec 2010 9:37 pm

knee levers are knee levers. msa gave us comfy padded ones and lots of brands add flags. i've taken the flags off whatever came on my steels. it's unnecessary junk. learn to play steel or go play something else.
...or design something we can't afford and don't need.

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 26 Dec 2010 11:13 pm

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 27 Dec 2010 1:37 am

I've done this to all my knee levers on all my steels.

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Please Explain Why Padded Knee Levers Are Not In Use

Please Explain Why Padded Knee Levers Are Not In Use

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please explain why padded knee levers aren't used

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