Fender Twin reissue 15" vs. vintage blackface 15"

Aaron Youngberg · Post by **Aaron Youngberg** » 4 Dec 2010 8:40 am

Last night I played (PS) through a vintage blackface Fender twin (not sure of the year) with a 15” speaker and absolutely loved it! I typically play through a Fender Steel King but man the tubes and headroom the twin provides is exactly what I’ve been looking for. Clean and warm (palm chimes though a tube amp(like the twin) sound 3D in comparison to a solid state amp (IMO). The twin also crunched (a little) at just the moments I was hoping it would. All in all a very reactive amp.
So now I’m on the hunt for a similar amp. This morning I’ve been looking at the Twin reissue w/ the 15” speaker though I’ve never played through one nor have I really heard much about them (I’m sure they sound great). However, I’m interested in hearing peoples thoughts on how the reissue compares to a vintage model with a 15” speaker installed. I like the reliability aspect of the newer model though if the tone of a vintage twin is far better than the reissue…..well then I’ll know what to be looking for. What are your thoughts (tone wise) on a blackface vintage twin 15” mod vs. a reissued twin 15”? Thanks in advance.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 4 Dec 2010 9:16 am

The reliability of the reissue(new) is a myth, if not a joke. I know folks who bought new reissue twins, that came out of the factory broken, just to get jerked around about the warranty. Some have lucked out and gotten a new reissue that were ok and sound really good.

Get yourself an older twin that is hand wired, get it serviced and you are good to go for the next 20 years. At the time of servicing, someone like forumite Ken Fox can specifically voice the amp FOR steel guitar.

The reissues, though they sound pretty good, use pcb electronics to try to IMITATE hand wired amps which are the real deal. 1964 to the early '80's gets you into the good handwired amps--the closer you get to the '80's, the more solid state components crept in. '72 was when the mastervolume was introduced, that some folks poo-poo. Don't listen--just turn the master v. up to 10 and forget about it, then it will perform like the non-master models. Welcome to the world of Fender tube amps.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 4 Dec 2010 10:19 am

Non master Silverface Twin..
68, 69, 70
You can find some great deals on a great amp that will go up in value..
Be advised that most people that buy old Fenders online end up getting a tune up at the least.
I would not bet on a new one, for myself personally.
I have and do own several of each old and new.
I have a 67 and a 69 that has been blackfaced.
I didn't notice much diff in the black face mod and these two amps sound pretty much identical.
Not too hot on the new ones myself.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 4 Dec 2010 10:49 am

Ken Metcalf wrote:Non master Silverface Twin..
68, 69, 70

and '71.

Matt Elsen · Post by **Matt Elsen** » 4 Dec 2010 11:40 am

Or, you might want to consider looking at a Fox Vintage Amp. It's Ken's amazing take on the old Fender Tweed Era Twin and comes with a 15"Jensen SICA.

Info and sound clips from Larry Bell and Tommy Butler here:

http://www.foxvintageamps.com/classic_green_003.htm

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 4 Dec 2010 12:29 pm

The Fender reissue amps are crap compared to the real ones. If you can't find an old Twin you love check into the mom and pop amp builders like Ken Fox.

It tragic what Fender has done with its amps. Corporate economies of scale concepts have ruined them. If they gave the money they spend on branding and market manipulation to the guys that actually build the amps they might be able make a decent product again.

Gordon Hartin · Post by **Gordon Hartin** » 4 Dec 2010 1:00 pm

I own a reissue fender twin reverb and Ken Fox's twin amp. Both are 2x12s. I just looked online and if you are buying the fender new they are around $1500. So, for $500 more you can get ken's amp, which is awesome and also about 20lbs lighter.

Gordon

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Dec 2010 1:00 pm

Don't forget the Quad Reverb. Same chassis. That's what I used, with a JBL 15".

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 4 Dec 2010 3:43 pm

Thanks to all for the confidence in our work as well as our new amps.

Right now we have only 1 of the 212 amps left and 6 of the 115 models. This is the last run of this year. Next years years will unfortunately be higher due to rising costs.

Also only 3 of the Fox Tube Reverb Units are left, in lacquered tweed. These will also be the last at the current prices.

This month only I am offering free shipping for these remaining amps.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 4 Dec 2010 5:11 pm

Yup,

Get something boutique like Ken's or get the vintage real deal. The reissue stuff simply isn't worth the money or the disappointment. It's true what they say about the reissue stuff. It's not "bad", but it's not the real thing, and by a longshot.

Brad

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 5 Dec 2010 2:59 pm

I see Craigs List deals on vintage Twins like this one all the time. You'd have to be crazy to spend $1400 + tax for a new re-issue when you can get the real deal for half that or less (this one with JBLs!!)!

http://denver.craigslist.org/msg/2090494752.html

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 5 Dec 2010 3:47 pm

EXACTLY!!!!!

A fully serviced, re-tubed, JBL-loaded, late '60s Twin Reverb for well under $1000. That's a REAL amplifier. That's the Lloyd Green Panther Hall amp right there. Pretty much considered the best sounding steel amp in history. Brumley used some of these quite a bit as well. Amazing steel guitar tone. The benchmark of benchmarks. What's so cool is that that amp will probably still be making music in another 40 years, maybe 100 years. Seriously. That rugged, US, military rugged mentality electronic build quality is designed to go and go and not stop. Just basic maintenance and adequate care and they'll live for much longer than us mortals.

Brad

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 5 Dec 2010 4:28 pm

Take a closer look:

Power supply over filtered (added caps, not original inside chassis)

Cabinet top knife joint separated, Tolex broken as a result. Very typical of the non-finger jointed cabs.

Tolex in bad shape

no back panel

JBLs are re-coned, might not be original to the amp (if so they would say Fender on them, Signature Series)

grill cloth replaced and installed in wrong direction

Bias cap not replaced!!

Tremolo cap not replaced

5 watt resistors on screen grids, an over kill

Tilt legs missing

So far that was all saw. Certainly not worth the asking price.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 5 Dec 2010 9:09 pm

DOH!!, a closer look would have been a good idea. I guess I was generalizing a bit too much and didn't pay much attention to the details of this particular example. Nice work Ken.

At the time of this posting, there's a real nice one that fits this late'60s/JBL-loaded bill on the for-sale section of the Steel Guitar Forum. Speakers aren't in perfect shape, but the amp overall seems like a winner.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=195799

Personally, I can't lift these things, but if you've got a good spine or roadies, these are killer.

B

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 6 Dec 2010 3:58 am

Brad, I guess after rebuilding 100's of Fender and others amp I am getting a bit finicky.

I just got in a Blackface Bandmaster that looks far better and I am still going to put to a minimum of 4-5 hours in it for cleaning and total checkout/repair before I will ever post it for sale. The little things that keep them looking and sounding original mean a lot to me. This one has casters on the right side of the cab! Not original and will have to go. Tolex has a few loose spots and needs some cleaning. Missing the original Fender speaker cable. Will build one with correct "F" cap speaker connectors for that.

When someone buys a vintage amp it should look, feel and be electronically correct, just my 2 cents worth.

If you get an amp that needs speakers re-coned you are looking at 100-300 each, depending on the speaker and the quality of the rebuild. I just sent an Oxford off out of a 1970's Vibrolux Reverb and it was close to $100 at my cost with freight there and back. If it had been a JBL, oh my!!!

What I am saying is always take a close look or get some help wh en shopping a used, vintage piece.

Now back to the original post! The reissues can have a very nice tone but are a nightmare to work on with their PC board layout. Still there are other brands with far worse circuit board layouts. Even though they are schematically the same I do not and will not work on any reissue amps in the shop. Been there and spent way to much time trying to get at the parts and even trouble shoot the amps.

If you want a vintage Twin with a 15" speaker you will need to get a baffle changed, no easy chore after the Blackface era, as the baffle boards are not removeable. Also you will need a 15" offset to miss the transformer. Must be a 4 ohm speaker or change the output transformer to match the speaker's impedance.

A 212 amp does in fact move more air and has the 3 db advantage gained with a second speaker. That is the same volume then as a 200 watt amp with 1-12" speaker with a 100 watt amp with two of the same 12" speakers.

Just some things to consider. Like you Brad, I can't deal with these heavy speakers anymore. I am a Neo guy all the way now!! I get the tones I love and my back is a happy camper.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 6 Dec 2010 5:36 am

Ken, you are finicky in all the RIGHT ways. That's why I sent you my '71 twin and '75 vibrosonic. They are awesome amps now voiced for steel with tone to the bone.
Weight? Yep, sure enough. but very manageable in a set of Rick Johnson cabinets. Play exclusively my '63 fingertip, and these amps speak the "tone truth", thanx to you, Ken.

No reissues for THIS ole boy!!

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 6 Dec 2010 6:08 am

I agree that the #1 reason for disliking the reissues is that they're NO FUN to work on. And compared to a real Fender which is a LOT OF FUN to work on, as in, they're very easy to service and access all the parts.

Sonically, a reissue does need a handful of components upgraded to sound its best, namely the preamp tube plate resistors, the cathode bypass capacitors, and nearly all the main signal cap's. I've done this to a Deluxe Reverb Reissue and it indeed helped. I still don't know how I feel about the modern output transformers, but I felt like the upgraded reissue amp sounded pretty darn good. So yes, the circuit is correct and true to the classic, and the board layout isn't bad for a PCB. It's just that it's a total pain to get at the stuff in there. And I also don't trust the long-long-term ruggedness of the modern build quality compared to the real stuff.

Regarding the removable baffle issue, didn't Fender start gluing them in with the '71 models? Maybe '70. I recall at least everything up thru '69 being a removable baffle. My '68's and my '69 Twin all were removable.

Brad

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 6 Dec 2010 9:57 am

I think you are correct on the dates for the baffles, Brad. That is when they went away from a true finger-jointed corner construction as well. After that you see a lot of amps with that crack right across the cabinet front at the corners

Geoff Cline · Post by **Geoff Cline** » 6 Dec 2010 10:07 am

Here's what I know from personal buying and gigging experience:

If Ken Fox built it, restored it or modded it, it will be a DEPENDABLE, GREAT SOUNDING AMP.

You can take that to the bank...or the stage. Ken knows amps...particularly amps for steel guitars!

Johnny Thomasson · Post by **Johnny Thomasson** » 12 Dec 2010 9:56 am

I can validate what others have said here. I have a '65 Twin that I bought in 1977. I put a 4 ohm 15" JBL in it, and keep it maintained by a qualified technician. I recently had a chance to try out a '65 reissue. It looked pretty, but sonically it didn't come anywhere close to mine. Definitely go with either the real thing or better yet, one of Ken's, which I believe would be a better amp. Mine's still an assembly-line amp, while Ken's are hand made with TLC. I'd love to have one.

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 19 Dec 2010 8:30 pm

Not to disagree with the general sentiment, but I've been surprised by how well my reissue has survived heavy gigging.

I've been playing it on stage and off for I think about 5 years now. It has probably played close to a thousand shows. Many of those shows were 3+ hours long, on stages without good PAs where it played on 9 the whole night.

It didn't have a road case until a year ago. I've never really dropped it, or had any misfortune befall it, but it's spent enough time jumping around in the beds of pickup trucks, and large trailers, to where everything in it has been shook loose and given plenty of opportunity to malfunction.

It gets so frighteningly hot on the back panel that you can burn yourself turning it off.

It sounds totally awesome. I've gone in and out of love with it at various points, always to come back. Usually it's me or my guitar out of whack, and not the amp's fault. I record with it and love what I get, Jensen imitation JBL and all.

It did have the reverb wired out of phase, so it was killing volume the more reverb you put into it, when I bought it. That was repaired early on.

So, just saying, even though I agree with the general sentiment about lack of quality, etc, that just because it's a reissue does not mean it's going to break.

EDIT: I do remember now that it did have some of the internals upgraded by the late great Jon Bessent of Austin, TX when he fixed the reverb problem. He looked it over and said something about the parts being chinese bullsh*t and put in things that looked like vanilla tootsie rolls. I'm obviously an electronics expert.

Robby Osenton · Post by **Robby Osenton** » 27 Jan 2011 9:37 pm

Something to remember is that in 1968, the twin reverb was $499.50. An inflation calculator turns that into $3,050 in todays money.

The reissue costs much less to make than they did back in the day, and the original amps are really being given away for what they are.

Boutique amps offer similar quality to the vintage amps, at similar, and many times better prices.

The vibro champ was 89.50, or $545 today. Modern building techniques have made it possible for fender to build similar amps at drastically lower prices.

I only buy boutique or vintage because in the long run, the quality matters.

Steve Hitsman · Post by **Steve Hitsman** » 28 Jan 2011 4:00 am

Not to confuse the issue but I have two RI Twins. I've removed the 12" speakers from both and loaded one with a D130 and one with an E130. Both were bought used for $500. Brad has played through the D130 and complimented the tone (and I don't think he was just being polite). I've had both "in the shop" at various times so I'm sure some upgrades have been made. No complaints from me.

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 29 Jan 2011 10:26 am

I have had nothing but compliments on the tone of my Fender RI Twin Custom 15. However, ever since I had a 15" custom built cab loaded with a Weber "Michigan" paired with my Peavey Nashville 112 amp head.... I never bother hauling any of my heavier amps to a gig. Amp and cab are both around 20 lbs. each. And with the 15" speaker, the Peavey is a totaly different amp!!!

But as far as sound, I love the Twin.

Scott Appleton · Post by **Scott Appleton** » 29 Jan 2011 10:37 am

Don't forget raybob bowman at tube-tone he makes hand wired twin black face circuits or any other model with many mods to choose from.

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