| Author |
Topic: Why do non-pedal chimes sound different? |
Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
|
Posted 30 Nov 2010 7:16 am |
|
Just heard Leon Payne's "I Love You Because" and was struck by how round and rich the steel chimes were. And Hawaiian music chimes hit me the same way.
Is it the tuning or the technique that makes it so distinctive, so different from E9th chimes which by comparison sound rather thin?
And of course: who was the steeler? |
|
|
|
billchav
From:
Houston, TX USA
|
Posted 30 Nov 2010 9:03 am Non Pedal Chimes
|
|
Frankie Juricek on the original with Leon Payne
_________________
"Keepin' the steelin' going strong"
www.billchaviers.com
Steel Guitar Tabs |
|
|
|
Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
|
|
|
|
Richard Sevigny
From:
Salmon Arm, BC, Canada
|
Posted 30 Nov 2010 11:28 am
|
|
I'm not sure, but I think the difference in sound might be equipment related. Pedal Steel tends to use pickups wound to high resistance (~17K Ohms) played through very clean transistor amps.
Lap steel pickups (with notable exceptions) have lower resistance (Supro string throughs are about 6K, Ricky shoes about 3-4K, P-90ish p'ups on old Gibsons are 6-8K, and I don't know about Fenders, but classic Tele and Strat p'ups run between 4-6K, so I'd expect stringmasters etc to run in the same ballpark) and tend to be played through tube amps.
More windings on the p'ups (more resistance) increases the resonant frequency, resulting in the "thinner" sound you hear. I also think tube amps have a greater tendency to "colour" the sound.
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.
-Albert Einstein |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
Posted 30 Nov 2010 11:51 am
|
|
I agree 100%, Richard! The main difference is in the pickups, single coil, low resistance, fewer windings... which produces thinner tones and brings out the cutting highs of the harmonics (chimes). And the tubes amps, low power, usually less than 20 watts in the 1950s, contributes to the cutting tone... some would call it distortion. I call it "warmth".  You won't get that sound from a modern PSG with humbucking pickups and a 200 watt solid state amp.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
|
|
|
Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
|
Posted 30 Nov 2010 12:22 pm
|
|
| Interesting - thanks guys. |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 4:40 am
|
|
And of course, the pedal steel technique incorporates judicious use of the volume (Swell) Pedal, whereas the lap or console steel player would not normally affect the Harmonics by using a Volume pedal. Therefore the initial transient of the note being plucked would sound entirely different.
IMHO |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 8:26 am
|
|
I think the chimes sound bigger in Leon Payne's "I Love You Because" because the steel is mixed so loud. There are almost no sounds competing with it and it is at least as loud as the vocal.
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 9:02 am edit
|
|
edit
Last edited by George Piburn on 24 Jun 2012 1:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Greg Booth
From:
Anchorage, AK, USA
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 11:45 am
|
|
George, those are my thoughts about it. Most PSG'ers use the fingertip method which has a brighter sound than the palm method which has a rounder softer sound.
_________________
Greg
Kathy Kallick Band
www.youtube.com/user/aksliderdobro |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
|
|
|
Peter Lindelauf
From:
Penticton, BC
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 12:22 pm
|
|
I've only been playing lap steel since last November. In fact, it was almost a year to the day that I finally tried the 3/5/12/7 harmonic slide in Doug's arrangement of Sleepwalk and, after a couple of tries, nailed it. What a thrill. I had to put my guitar down and go make a cup of coffee.
_________________
...but you are the music / while the music lasts (TS Eliot) |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 12:34 pm
|
|
Peter.... GREAT....So now you're hooked..Just one thing, try and ignore those who insist on calling the artificial Harmonics "Chimes"..... That terminology really rests with the pedal steel players, and the term "Slide" with the bottleneck and resophonic players. Most of us "Old Timers" prefer the terminology "Gliss" or "Glissando" (I think)
The wheel has almost been reinvented regarding the order of strings in tuning descriptions.. One day it will ALL be forgotten..BUT NOT whilst I breath.. |
|
|
|
Peter Lindelauf
From:
Penticton, BC
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 3:23 pm
|
|
I hope all of you 'old timers' know how much you're appreciated and admired.
_________________
...but you are the music / while the music lasts (TS Eliot) |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 3:37 pm
|
|
| Well,,,, I would also take into consideration the pedal steel changer. Lot of moving parts. All those parts have to have a bit of "slop" in them if they're going to move. Not like a lapsteel, where the strings are really coupled closely to the body of the guitar. And string through, etc.. The strings resonance is really hooked up to the body of the guitar. So,,, pickups,,, SS amps (yuck! Hate 'em! Got at least 15 amps, not one SS amp amongst them), a lot of basic differences between lap and pedal guitars. |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 4:23 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| The wheel has almost been reinvented regarding the order of strings in tuning descriptions.. One day it will ALL be forgotten..BUT NOT whilst I breath.. |
I hear ya, Basil! There's a lot of revisionism going on in the steel guitar world today... like the "single neck Stringmaster" 
John, I agree that some tone is lost in the mechanisms of a PSG. I remember a phone conversation with an Irish steel player about 30 years ago, and he said that "lap steel has more b@lls than a pedal steel, for some reason". I understood exactly what he was talking about!
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
|
|
|
Greg Booth
From:
Anchorage, AK, USA
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 4:35 pm
|
|
Can somebody explain why a fretted harmonic is "artificial"? Is it artificial on a regular guitar? Is it a "true" harmonic if you have a capo on? Aren't they all just harmonics?
_________________
Greg
Kathy Kallick Band
www.youtube.com/user/aksliderdobro |
|
|
|
Frank Freniere
From:
The First Coast
|
Posted 2 Dec 2010 4:43 pm
|
|
Basil -
Thanks for posting those links to the music. |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 3 Dec 2010 1:23 am
|
|
| Greg Booth wrote: |
| Can somebody explain why a fretted harmonic is "artificial"? Is it artificial on a regular guitar? Is it a "true" harmonic if you have a capo on? Aren't they all just harmonics? |
I would believe that it's because they're artificially created, whereas the term Harmonic would refer (Normally) to some partial content of the note.
A harmonic per se, with no terms of reference is just part of a note, artificial would imply the creation of.
I think..
But on the other hand, I have never heard anyone differentiate betwixt the two when talking about Steel Guitar.
Here, in Blighty, the two terminologies are interchangeable, but NEVER are Chimes or Chiming used.(Except in the Pedal Steel community)
And YES Doug, those single neck Stringmasters are becoming more popular than the Delux 8, just like the "Diamond Head" pickup terminology that is SUPPOSEDLY credited with Herbie Remington's origination.(Though he doesn't remember using that term)
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=102726&start=29
And there is a new term for control placement "Outboard" meaning still on the guitar but behind the bridge or somewhere else..See above link
When a chord is named in a given key, there are set rules about what can be omitted from the name but taken for granted the extension is required to be played, i.e. the 5 chord is taken for granted to be a seventh unless specified differently.
Well some sort of uniformity in the general descriptive terminology should be - could be our goal as denziens of the instrument.
Maybe a thread and selected group of aficionados (Of at least a certain age and experience) could TRY and find/define/refine some of the more ambiguous terms..
A certain person did it with "Copedant" although the varied spellings persist, at least the term is generally accepted. |
|
|
|
Greg Booth
From:
Anchorage, AK, USA
|
Posted 3 Dec 2010 8:18 am
|
|
Basil, I listened to your Maui Chimes and loved it. I suspect calling harmonics on the steel guitar "chimes" comes from songs like this and others like "Moana Chimes", "Dobro Chimes" and "Steel Guitar Chimes" etc. When I started playing dobro 5 yrs ago I encountered the term "artificial harmonics" being used to refer to barred or fretted notes that are struck using the palm method as opposed to "true harmonics" struck on open strings. This is what I was referring to and have a problem with. I share your concern for the gradual and pervasive degradation of language and pronunciation, perhaps worse on this side of the Atlantic!
_________________
Greg
Kathy Kallick Band
www.youtube.com/user/aksliderdobro |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 3 Dec 2010 8:21 am
|
|
| On this side of the Pond, "founder" and "flounder" now have the same meaning! |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 3 Dec 2010 9:36 am
|
|
OK, Greg, just to stay on subject of the post, the harmonics played on the Leon Payne's "I Love You Because" are most definitely Palm Harmonics..
Now to other things, Maui Chimes, Sweet Hawaiian Chimes and others have been discussed in GREAT depth here:-
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=139990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=sweet+hawaiian+chimes&start=25
Sweet Hawaiian Chimes.
Verse...
Oh the chimes in an old Hawaiian mission
Were ringing out the midnight hour
As we pledged our true love in the moonlight
Beneath a perfumed covered bower,
The Chimes of the Church Bell is the subject of Sweet Hawaiian Chimes and many related tunes.. NOT I may add Steel Guitar Chimes which may have been designated that name for the "Country & Western" pool of players.
Oh yes, I almost forgot...Greg Booth, I found this on a guitar related web site..
http://www.guitarlessonworld.com/lessons/lesson46.htm
Open-String Harmonics
Fretted Harmonics
Artificial Harmonics
Pinched Harmonics
AND, not one reference to "Chimes".
| Quote: |
| Harmonics are played every time you pluck a note. Most of the time, however, you do not hear them. What you hear is the fundamental (sometimes called the first harmonic). The fundamental is the loudest sound produced, but it is accompanied by several harmonics. "Playing harmonics" on guitar is actually playing "artificial harmonics." Basically, it is a way of eliminating the fundamental and the other overtones. It produces a nice effect that many guitarists like to use. There are several ways to play these. |
Now, fundamentally, the playing of Frank Juricek
HERE
Is a really good example of palm harmonics.. |
|
|
|
John Bushouse
|
Posted 3 Dec 2010 8:28 pm
|
|
| Hey, if National thought the New Yorker (the successor to the Electric Hawaiian) ought to have a "chimes" setting, it's OK to refer to playing harmonics as playing chimes... Of course, my Electric Hawaiian didn't have the chimes setting, just a Natural/Hawaiian knob... |
|
|
|
John Bushouse
|
Posted 3 Dec 2010 8:30 pm
|
|
| Richard Sevigny wrote: |
I'm not sure, but I think the difference in sound might be equipment related. Pedal Steel tends to use pickups wound to high resistance (~17K Ohms) played through very clean transistor amps.
Lap steel pickups (with notable exceptions) have lower resistance (Supro string throughs are about 6K, Ricky shoes about 3-4K, P-90ish p'ups on old Gibsons are 6-8K, and I don't know about Fenders, but classic Tele and Strat p'ups run between 4-6K, so I'd expect stringmasters etc to run in the same ballpark) and tend to be played through tube amps.
More windings on the p'ups (more resistance) increases the resonant frequency, resulting in the "thinner" sound you hear. I also think tube amps have a greater tendency to "colour" the sound. |
| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| I agree 100%, Richard! The main difference is in the pickups, single coil, low resistance, fewer windings... which produces thinner tones and brings out the cutting highs of the harmonics (chimes). And the tubes amps, low power, usually less than 20 watts in the 1950s, contributes to the cutting tone... some would call it distortion. I call it "warmth". You won't get that sound from a modern PSG with humbucking pickups and a 200 watt solid state amp. |
Thanks, Richard and Doug - these two posts helped my crystallize why I prefer the sound of lap steel over PSG. |
|
|
|
