A question for the C6th steel players

Kevin Klimek · From: Minnesota, USA

I hope this doesn't sound like a stupid question. I'm back into steel playing after a long layoff. Mostly I played E9th but I love the C6th sound. So I've been working a lot on that. On the E9th, I sort of consider the #1 and #2 pedals my default foot position. I'm wondering where the serious back neck players normally start out when they're playing that neck? (Standard Copedant). In my case, it seems like pedal 6 and 7 seem to be a good "default" position for me. Let the responses begin and thanks for any info you have for me.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

When I play C6th my "default" foot position is over pedals 5 & 6. That makes more sense to me because pedal 5 gives you the two chord as a minor seventh or ninth, pedal 6 gives you the four chord as a major or seventh or ninth, and the two pedals together give you a diminished chord; all at the same fret.

Moving the foot to play the 6 & 7 pedals is about like playing the B & C pedals on the E9th; it's no big deal.

That's been my experience, but I've got a long way to go on C6th.

Steven Welborn · From: Ojai,CA USA

Id say 5&6 would be more common but 7 would come in a close second.

Kevin Klimek · From: Minnesota, USA

I truly appreciate the responses guys. What you say makes a lot of good sense as well. I find the C6th neck so challenging, mysterious but gorgeous sounding musically, but then maybe I'm reading too much into it. That being said...I had been a six stringer all my life; my very first exposure to a steel guitar record was by none other than the great Curly Chalker. As a teenager in the late
60's, I was driving in my car and a local radio station played "King Of The Road" from his 'Big Hits On Big Steel' album. At the time I was a punk kid immersed in Rock and Roll. It moved me so much that I tore home in my car, got to a phone, and called up the station to find out who it was. After that I was hooked. I ordered the album which I still have to this day. It took several years before I finally got the money and the courage to buy my first steel. Sorry to rattle on...but you all know how it goes! Thanks again for the info.

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

Great tale Kevin.

It reminds me of my first encounter with the pedal steel.

...when you have NO CLUE, it hits you hard; especially if you are open-minded.

You gotta go and FIND OUT. What the hell did I just hear? I LOVE IT! I WANT MORE! GIVE ME MORE!
OH PLEASE, GIVE ME MORE!

Thanks Kevin... made my day Very Happy

_________________
Chip
Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer.

Jeff Agnew · From: Dallas, TX

My foot is centered over the #6 pedal only. Then I pivot for 5&6 or 6&7 without moving my heel. Pedal 6 by itself functions like the AB pedals on E9, moving from a 1 to 4 chord or a 5 to 1.

Also, the 5th pedal produces a 2 dominant seventh, not a minor seventh.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

I like the sound of the 5,6 & 7 together, so I also have the middle G-->F# (5th string) change on a knee lever as well. Amongst other uses, the 3 pedal combo gives you a II dom thirteenth cord.

Paul Crawford · From: Orlando, Fl

I guess once again I'm the outlier here. I learned to play using both feet. I just set the volume to where I want it then keep the left foot over 5 / 6 and the right foot over 7 / 8.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I put P6 on a knee lever for a similar reason, PLUS not wanting to use both feet on the pedals to get P5+7. That was on my last D-10 -- I usually play U12 guitars and all have the B6 equivalent of P6 on a lever.

Some C6 players have P7 or P8 on a lever as well.

FWIW.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Jeff Agnew is absolutely correct: Pedal 5 gives a dominant seventh (or ninth), not a minor anything. I don't know what I was thinking. I should have known better than to try and give advice regarding C6th.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Rick,

I am working on a C6 version of Autumn Leaves and I actually just discovered that m7-b5 about 2 hours ago!

Greg

John Alexander · Posted 24 Nov 2010 3:36 pm **Flat 9 Suspended**

I always thought the purpose of pedal 5 was to get a B susb9 in open position, by playing the root of the chord (B) with the tip of the bar on the 10th string, second fret (or leaving it up to the bass player to play the root). It resolves nicely to E6 on fret 4 with pedals up. Cool

John Alexander · Posted 24 Nov 2010 4:33 pm

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

Really pedal 6 and 7 together gives you a 13/#11 chord that is used quite a bit. But if you lower your 3rd string 1/2 step and split your fingers between the 1st string and lowered 3rd string (assuming its a D on top) you have the same chord. I now raise my 4th and 8th with the 7th pedal. That is where I "hover" a lot, over the 6th and 7th pedals.

Rick
Do you play strings 3,4,5 and 9 for that half dim. in the open position?. If so you could also call that a 2 dom7th chord.

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Im just beginning to learn the C6 neck too.
I use 5 and 6 as the root position for the left foot, similar to A and B on E9.

First thing I worked on figuring out was a 7th chord scale to get my bearings on most of the strings!

Using 2 pedals (5 and 6), and 2 knee levers (RKL raises 3 and 7 a half, CKR raises 10 a whole, lowers 5 a whole) the fret position is the same on guitar ie. the chord scale tones are the same distance of frets as on guitar.
Using fret 3 as the root for instance:
I = 5+RKL on fret 3
ii = CKR on fret 5
iii = CKR on fret7
IV = 5+RKL on fret 8
V7 = 5 on fret 10
vi = CKR on fret 12
viiº = 5+6 on fret 14
(I = 5+RKL on fret 15)

Now Im learning about the other pedals and levers.
Since its okay to use both feet on C6 I usually use the right foot for pedals 7 and 8 (except moving over to 6 and 7). Smile

Clete

John Alexander · Posted 24 Nov 2010 11:52 pm

Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

I don't have a default position for my foot on C6. My thinking is more on playing of the neck and not the pedals. Chords are just a supplement to me on C6. It also depends on the chart your playing regarding your aproach and what pedals you use.
_________________
D-10 JCH Dekley U-12 D-8 Magnatone Mullen RP Evans RE 200 profex 2 BJS bars
Dentyne gum (peppermint)

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I agree with Scott. I don't think of any pedals on C6 as a "home base" in the same way that A&B pedals are on E9. To really play chord melody style the way I like, I need to keep my feet trained to use all the pedals and levers equally at any given moment.

That being said, I find myself using pedal 7 the most for single string stuff. (if I use pedals at all for single lines)

I think the best advice I could give anyone who wants to learn C6 pedal steel would be to sit down and figure out what chords every pedal combination makes from the 4 low strings up. Memorize what the root note is on those strings in the open position. (e.g. String 9 with the 5th pedal is an F#.)
Then find some sheet music for some non 3 chord country song that you like and try to come up with your own arrangement using that technique. Trust me it gets to be more second nature to more you do it, but start out slow as you need to at first.

As you can tell, I love threads about C6!

Cool

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Excellent advice from Mr. Rick

Any tuning has simple stuff on the surface. In between the cracks (like, on E9 playing in D or F# using the 9th or 7th as root) is where you'll find the meat.

A closely voiced tuning like C6 has a different chord with each note on 10,9,8,7 used as the root. Take each pedal and combination and map out the scale tones for using 10 as the root, then 9, then 8. 7 is just an octave above 10 but there is some cool stuff there too. Make a chart of every chord you can dream up using a given pedal. Repeat for all the other pedals and pedal/pedal and pedal/lever combinations. You will have an encyclopedia of chords on C6, BUT you will have learned a lot just going through the exercise. You won't get it done in a day or two. It could take years of exploring.

That digs you one layer beyond the obvious but there are more layers to this onion. When you start looking at rootless substitutions (let the bass player play the root and you build from there) the diversity is amazing, BUT YOU HAVE TO HUNT FOR IT. There are many ways to hunt, but an organized approach is always best.

C6 is fun. I play it on B6 but it is the same animal. Oh, and, when I did play C6 on a D10, like Scotty and Rick mentioned above, I never thought of any particular 'home' foot position like on E9. It did depend on the song or mood or chord progression.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

Larry I started on a uni 12. I think that helped me even more in understanding playing off the top.PLUS you have the access to so man pedal combinations with as many pedals within the B6th tuning.(On my D-10 I have a whole bunch of toys! LOL) Good analogy of the 6th neck Rick and Larry. By Learning how to work the tuning before the pedals helps you with ALL your tunings. I wrote a book on the B6th tuning in the 80s and have considered writing another called..you guess it...Playing off the top.
_________________
D-10 JCH Dekley U-12 D-8 Magnatone Mullen RP Evans RE 200 profex 2 BJS bars
Dentyne gum (peppermint)

Clete Ritta · From: San Antonio, Texas

Ryan Barwin · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I keep my foot over the 5th and 6th pedals.
I like to think of my C6th pedals in relation to E9, though this is a huge oversimplification of their function...

P5 is like the A pedal, because of if you slide back 2 frets, you get the dominant 1 chord like you would with the A pedal. I have my C to C# raises on LKL, so P5 works like the A pedal because it's the same motion of sliding up 3 frets and hitting the first pedal and LKL (e.g. A+F) for the next inversion of the root chord.

P6 is like the B pedal because it changes from the 1 chord to the 4 chord. Also the E to F (3rd to 4th) change relates to the G# to A change on the E9 B pedal. On E9, I have the G to F# change split with the B pedal, so I also get a 1 minor voicing with an 11th on top or 4 dominant chord with a root on top (the top note being A on E9th or F on C6th) just as I would with P6 on C6th.

I also do the same physical motion to play the three inversions of the 1 major chord. No pedals, then move up 3 frets with A+F (P5 and C to C#), then move up another 5 frets with A+B (P6).

P7 isn't really like the C pedal, but it's comparable because it takes the root up to a 9th (C to D) like the C pedal does (E to F#).
_________________
www.pedalsteel.ca

Cal Sharp · From: the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN

You guys are confusing me with all this rhetoric about pedals. Smile

A lot of the stuff I play on C6th requires minimal pedal activity.

I think a lot of guys approach this neck with the mind set that they're gonna learn a bunch of cool licks, but a better approach might be to learn scales and chords in various positions, as you would on any instrument, and where they lie on the neck, which results in identifying "pockets" all over the neck from which you can play a whole bunch of stuff.
_________________
C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville

Wayne Franco · From: silverdale, WA. USA

I think the guys that learned from the ground up when pedals were nonexistent know the neck so much better. Problem is a lot of us skipped that step simply because we could. I think in some cases it is actually faster not to use the pedals for single note playing. When I started learning the C-6 neck I using the Emmons course but it took me a long time to realize the importance of the pockets he explains in that course. No pedals there if I recall correctly.
I do think a player will be way ahead of the game if you can find a knowledgeable teacher. It will take years off your beginning advancement. I've been taking lessons over the phone for 3 years. It may or may not work for a beginning student but works great for me since I record everything and catch every scrap. Steel is unique in the sense you can look right at someone and really can't tell what they are doing. Also, I don't live in Nashville where there would be access to great teachers.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic