| Author |
Topic: push-pull tone vs pull-release tone |
Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
|
Posted 25 Nov 2010 5:01 pm |
|
I would like to know how the tone of a pull release guitar compares to a push pull. I've heard that the pus pull design sounds like it does do to the "full body contact" at the changer end. It seems to me that the pull release would sound just as good for the same reason.
I once had a 1968 Marlen D10 pull release wooden neck guitar. But it was my very first guitar and I didn't know anything back then. And most of all it was in bad shape and I tried to work on it, but it was a bastard to say the least and I traded it for a later all pull guitar. Nonetheless, I never got chance to really hear what it could have sound like had I been patient enough to get it fixed and tuned up. |
|
|
|
Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
|
Posted 25 Nov 2010 7:38 pm
|
|
| It has been my experience that many of the pull-release guitars sound terrific! |
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
|
Posted 25 Nov 2010 11:07 pm
|
|
I've had many push-pull guitars and more than several pull-release guitars (Bigsby, Sho~Bud, Marlen), both sound great.
Pull-release guitars from the 50's through the mid-60s (e.g. Bigsby, ShoBud, Marlen, Miller) have a very sweet, "transparent" high end, not shrill. Good string separation in the lower strings. Most had very lightly wound pickups. Marlens into the 70s had that tone. I had a mid-70's Marlen here at my home workbench just recently, and it had the sweetest Charleton-on-a-Bud sound I'd heard in a long time.
The push-pull guitar has a brasher, punchier sound, but since there's only been the Emmons Original, all I can say is that it doesn't sound like any of the pull-release guitars I've heard, owned or played. It simply sounds like an Emmons, and there's a wide spectrum of Emmons sounds as well.
A guitar's sound, of course, is a product not only of the changer, but also the pickups, the peghead, and the body construction itself.
Just my opinion, but I think the all-pull changer, while mechanically a great improvement performance-wise, didn't do anything positive for the tone of the steel guitar in general. Something was lost when that changer was developed; maybe the pieces of the changer don't have the mass necessary, or the metallurgy changed, or the pathway of the strings to the body was diminished. But whatever it is/was, something happened.
So, the other factors of the guitar - pickup, body design/construction, et al.- have to determine for me, the pluses and minuses of the individual guitar. I have a LeGrande Emmons (all-pull) that I enjoy and it's fairly easy to modify, but it doesn't have the sound of any of my push-pulls.
Again, that's my opinion, totally subjective. Over the 42 years I've been playing professionally, I've owned 14 all-pull guitars and an equal number of push-pulls, so I speak from my personal experience.
Your mileage, of course, may vary.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
|
|
|
Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
|
Posted 26 Nov 2010 6:51 am
|
|
Thanks Herb
That the kind of info I am looking for. I am somewhat searching to buy a emmons Push pull but they are hard to find and more expensive than a pull release guitar.
The growling overtones on the mids and lows is what I I like so much about the push pulls. I am assuming the pull release guitars sound very similar |
|
|
|
Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
|
Posted 26 Nov 2010 7:14 am
|
|
>>>CAUTION<<< All PP Emmoms guitars do not have "that tone", altho good sounding just the same.
Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
|
|
|
richard burton
From:
Britain
|
Posted 26 Nov 2010 9:59 am
|
|
No.
Raises predominate, just like on a push-pull.
Push-pulls are actually glorified pull-releases, the advantage being that most of the tuning can be done at the endplate, as opposed to the underbody tuners on a pull-release. |
|
|
|
Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
|
Posted 26 Nov 2010 10:50 am
|
|
I can tell you that Frank Rogers has an old blue mica Marlen pull-release that he's been playing as long as I've known him -- probably 35 years. I always wondered why he never got another guitar. Every time I hear him play I'm reminded why. It is a world class steel guitar sound -- right up there with the original Emmons guitars and ZBs (my two favorites of the 'vintage' guitars). Plus, Frank Rogers is one of the finest musicians, who happens to play steel guitar, on the planet.
Frank: If you happen to read this -- happy Thanksgiving buddy -- I miss my friends in Michigan. Drop me an Email some time.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
|
|
|
chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
|
Posted 26 Nov 2010 11:09 am
|
|
Like most people, I have no shortage of opinions. I think the primary difference between the all-pull guitars, that I own, and the P/P is, the P/P changer has 2 long aluminum fingers and a very thin wire that connects to them, for the pulls. When the finger isn't being pulled, the wire hangs loose, barely touching it. This means that there is a minimal damping of the vibration happening in each finger. And the push rods also have a minimal contact with their half of the finger pair.
By the same token, Bigsby changers have a long aluminum finger and very little "hanging" on them, although they have 1/4" axles, which seems a little thin.
You can make a good argument that the Sho-Bud Permanent is right up there with the Bigsby although I think the best sounding Sho-Bud changer is the "bird cage", and that doesn't make any sense to me because all those springs, which can vibrate, are also damping the vibration of the fingers.
If somebody knows the answer to that one, I'd love to hear it. |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 26 Nov 2010 1:49 pm
|
|
| richard burton wrote: |
Raises predominate, just like on a push-pull.
|
That's a deal breaker for me. I never had tunable splits before I got my first Millennium, but now that I've gotten used to them, I couldn't live without them.
Perhaps the way to combine the superior mechanics of the all pull with the tone of a P-P or pull release is to have an integrated tuner and changer on the left side of the guitar, (like the Moyo or new Excel,) and the strings going through the body like a Tele on the right.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 26 Nov 2010 10:30 pm
|
|
| Chas, that's interesting. I never considered that about the thin wire and those fingers being free to vibrate. I dont know as much about the P/R changers except that they have single long fingers. They have their own fabulous sound. Whether they're connected with minimal dampening I dont know. I assume though that since the single finger both raises and lowers the string by being pulled or released that there is no 'resting' against the deck as the push finger does on a P/P, perhaps they come to rest at end of a pull...i dunno. |
|
|
|
richard burton
From:
Britain
|
Posted 27 Nov 2010 12:23 am
|
|
This is the principle of the pull-release system.
 |
|
|
|
Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 27 Nov 2010 4:01 am
|
|
Another thing that affects the difference in sound is that pull-release guitars (e.g. Marlens and early Buds) typically have wood necks, and push-pulls typically have aluminum necks.
| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| Perhaps the way to combine the superior mechanics of the all pull with the tone of a P-P or pull release is to have an integrated tuner and changer on the left side of the guitar, (like the Moyo or new Excel,) and the strings going through the body like a Tele on the right. |
I completely agree. It's ridiculous that we're still putting the changer on the bridge end of the guitar, and sacrificing tone for mechanics (or mechanics for tone), when the changer could just as easily be put on the other side of the guitar, and have a solid, resonant bridge with complete body contact all the time, and nothing to dampen it. I actually bought a bunch of parts which I'm planning on building into a guitar with that concept, at some point.
_________________
www.pedalsteel.ca |
|
|
|
Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
|
Posted 27 Nov 2010 5:18 am
|
|
| Ryan Barwin wrote: |
I completely agree. It's ridiculous that we're still putting the changer on the bridge end of the guitar, and sacrificing tone for mechanics (or mechanics for tone), when the changer could just as easily be put on the other side of the guitar, and have a solid, resonant bridge with complete body contact all the time, and nothing to dampen it. I actually bought a bunch of parts which I'm planning on building into a guitar with that concept, at some point. |
Gibson, and some of the earlier pedal steels had this setup. Why it was changed, I don't remember seeing it discussed.
Steven, I think PP guitars use the body for the stop on the raise, as do the pull/release, also the p/r guitars lowers are at rest on the body held by spring tension,except for when the string is raised, and lowered(see Richards sketch)
FWIW...It would be interesting to have someone with PP expertise examine a PP with "that" tone, and a seemingly identical PP that does not and document the differences that he may find.,,I think Charles Smith, or Mike Cass might would qualify for this task.
Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
|
|
|
Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 28 Nov 2010 7:36 pm
|
|
On Friday afternoon, I put the finishing touches on the first of three prototypes that I've been working on for eons. All three feature a pull/release, single-finger changer system. I made up a foundry pattern to cast the endplates with strategically-placed ribbing and leg sockets. The endplates are hardened Almag 35 and fully-machined. The guitars feature a 24.50" scale, yet are only 27.50" in overall length. I used a George L's 10-1 pickup on this first one and their stainless strings. The body is only 7.00" wide. The wood is mechanically connected to the left endplate with an angle plate of sorts which also serves as a vee-block into which the stainless solid, gaged nut is seated. The "comb" for the keyless tuners is machined into the left endplate, then the angle plate is attached to it underneath, and attached to the raised neck portion of the Fender 400-like neck/deck insert which is made from North Carolina Yellow Poplar. The changer has no support struts. The axle is 3/8" diameter and made from a fully-hardened and nitrided mold ejector pin held in place with a retainer block on each end. Those two blocks sit atop ribs which were integrally-cast into the right endplate for that purpose. There is NO mechanical attachment of the wood at that point to the changer itself. The pickup is mounted solidly in its well. The right endplate has a row of stop screws behind the fingers. They act as either a neutral-setting adjustment, or an adjustment for lowers. To keep the screws from squirming, I used a 1/8" strip of nylon with undersize holes to act as a friction device. All pullrods are 3/32" and have nylon tuning nuts as any other guitar would have. I played a jam session with it on Saturday night...its maiden voyage. I have zero cabinet drop, and if there is any hysteresis, I have not yet found it with any of the tuners I have, and that includes a Korg WT-12. The frame rails were made from 1/4" x 2-1/2" 6061 aluminum angle fabrications, but I have since acquired custom-made extrusions eliminating a lot of machine work. This guitar has the fullest tone I have ever heard on a steel guitar. Using 3 FP's and 6 KL's, it weighs 22 pounds on the floor.
I must fully agree that maybe something was lost in tone quality as the changers evolved over the years which is exactly the reason I chose to digress to a single-finger, body-contact design, then add a basically free-standing neck and free-standing changer not connected to each other.
On the second prototype, the changer has been moved to the left, the solid nut to the right along with the keyless tuners. The changer fingers have been gaged on a slight taper to minimize metal, and therefore radius, material removal. The bar will sit flat at the first fret. There will be no auxiliary bridge or nut (or rollers) ahead of the fingers...only the fingers themselves.
I have just finished shooting a roll of 35mm film of #1 and will get some pics to y'all ASAP.
I have seen posts in the past regarding "short guitars sounding shrill and tinny". This guitar is only 3.00" longer than its scale length, yet has full, rich tone with no "dead spots" anywhere up or down the neck. I hope this one puts the too-short guitar body myth to rest.
PRR |
|
|
|
Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 28 Nov 2010 8:25 pm
|
|
What about the Simmons pull release tone compared to the Marlen ? Do the pull release guitars hold their tuning good ? I've played all pull guitars for 20 years and sometimes tuning is a problem and could a adjustment/player problem.
Tony |
|
|
|
Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
|
Posted 28 Nov 2010 8:34 pm
|
|
Tony
My experience with pull-release guitars is that if they're in good shape mechanically, set up correctly (good springs, correct bellcrank angle leverages, etc.), and the tuning screws are tight enough to hold their position without wallowing out, the pull-release guitar is a very stable system for holding its tuning.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
|
|
|
Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 28 Nov 2010 8:41 pm
|
|
Thanks Herb.
Tony |
|
|
|
James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
|
Posted 28 Nov 2010 9:33 pm
|
|
| chas smith wrote: |
You can make a good argument that the Sho-Bud Permanent is right up there with the Bigsby although I think the best sounding Sho-Bud changer is the "bird cage", and that doesn't make any sense to me because all those springs, which can vibrate, are also damping the vibration of the fingers.
If somebody knows the answer to that one, I'd love to hear it. |
Whats a "birdcage"?
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
|
|
|
Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
|
Posted 28 Nov 2010 10:20 pm
|
|
Another significant factor (speaking generally) in the difference in tone of the old Sho Buds, Marlens, Bigsbys of the early days is that they used a 3/4" plank for the tops. When the Emmons push/pull came along, they opted for a lighter guitar and so did most of the other makers, using a 1/2" thick top. This amount of reduction in mass is bound to have an effect on the tone.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
|
|
|
Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
|
Posted 29 Nov 2010 3:13 pm
|
|
1) If the tonal "difference" is in changer finger contact with the body of the guitar why - when the changer is connected only to the rod - does a half-stopped string still sound consistently the same?
2) I have a Push-Pull and an All-Pull, one is a D10 covered in formica and the other is an S10 in bird's-eye maple; both produce really nice sounds with no amp plugged in and the primary audible difference when plugged in is between the George L's and the single-coil. That one you can hear.
3) Any difference in inherent "tone" between these or other guitars I have played pales in significance when weighed against my own ability to make a given note sing or suck simply with the behavior of my fingertips.
Just like automobiles, there are a few lemons out there and there are a few guitars with certifiable "magic" (the classical musician in me suspects it's all about the wood). Every individual guitar definitely FEELS different to play and that will certainly affect the sound we ultimately produce, but when it comes to tone, it's pretty much fingers and pickups, that's my story and I've got a pretty good flame suit and a serious smile to cover me  |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 29 Nov 2010 3:56 pm
|
|
Paul,
Looking forward very much to pictures. Maybe start a new thread? And give me a "ping" so I don't miss it?
JB, Kline nut |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 29 Nov 2010 4:40 pm
|
|
| I heard Pauls' prototype over the phone before rods/bellcranks etc. were installed and to my ears it indeed sounded like a pull release but on steroids. Kinda scary actually. I'm trying to figure out how to post pics sent to me via email to show the endplate castings and how the changer axle mounts directly to it. Beautiful work. This, plus an upgraded user friendly pull release and a highly resonant deck...sounds dangerous to me. |
|
|
|
ebb
From:
nj
|
Posted 29 Nov 2010 7:33 pm
|
|
the 2 bl 705s with the left changer is mine |
|
|
|
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
|
Posted 29 Nov 2010 8:26 pm
|
|
| Ebb, you have the pics that show the underside of the castings? They really help to illustrate the structural concept here. |
|
|
|
