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Topic: Pedal curious lap player |
John Rosett
From:
Missoula, MT
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Posted 24 Nov 2010 9:51 am |
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I've been playing non-pedal steel for about 5 years now, and I've gotten to the point where my band mates are actually happy when I start playing it. I've been playing in G6 on a 7 string guitar, and am getting around on it pretty good. Last night at band practice, I was playing, and it occured to me that it would be nice to have a couple of pedals. I really know nothing about pedal steel, but I think that if I had a C6 guitar (I don't even know how a 10 string C6 pedal steel is tuned!), with just a couple of pedals, I could do a lot of things that I'm thinking about.
Are there guitars like this? There's a nice looking S10 C6 guitar in the classifieds, but it has 6 pedals and a couple of knee levers, and that seems like way too much for my poor old brain.
So, I'm looking for advice here. What's the normal tuning for a C6 pedal steel? What are the standard changes the pedals make? Are there guitars like this available? Etc, Etc?
Thanks. |
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Chris Brooks
From:
Providence, Rhode Island
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Posted 24 Nov 2010 10:55 am
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John,
My advice is to go right for a single-10 E-9 pedal steel with at least 3 pedals and 4 levers.
A "C-6" single neck pedal steel is rare because the default single neck is an E-9. So you'd have to convert, add pedals, because as you noted, the C 6 tuning itself uses at least 5 pedals.
The E 9 tuning makes a lot of sense. Much tab is available in E-9. And these steels are available here every day from our Forum members.
Just my opinion.
Chris |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2010 10:59 am
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Check out the Jimmy Day and Buddy Emmons C6 copedants here:
http://b0b.com/tunings/stars.html#C6jd
The Jimmy Day could probably be considered the more "traditional" or "old fashioned" of the two. Note that the Emmons tuning has the 1st string tuned differently. Other than that difference the tunings are pretty much the same other than the addition of more knee levers.
As far as what particular guitar would suit what you have in mind, an old Fender 400 (8 strings, 4 pedals) or an old Emmons 8 string student model (4 pedals and 1 knee lever) would probably be a good thing to start with for something incrementally more advanced than your lap steel. Both appear for sale on the Forum from time to time, the Fender 400 being much more common than the Emmons 8 string.
I think I know of the C6 S-10 you are referring to and that guitar is one of the easiest to experiment on with different changes. Single necks set up for C6 are very rare, probably 99% of single necks are designed for the E9th tuning.
Unfortunately there are no 8 string simple pedal steels offered by current manufacturers AFAIK. b0b special ordered a custom 8 string with 5 pedals and 5 knee levers for a tuning of his own design, but I think ordering something like that would have no cost advantage over getting a standard 10 string with 3 pedals and 4 knees. However most modern guitars (other than student/economy models like the Stage One and Carter Starter) can be re-configured to do whatever you want. You could easily use a standard "E9" model and set it up with 8 strings if you wish, and configure the pedals to do whatever you want, and ignore the knee levers until you find yourself thinking of changes to use them for. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 24 Nov 2010 2:04 pm
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| As a "nonpedal-curious" pedal player I think guys who can get around without pedals must have access to some kind of secret magic;they've already done all the hard work learning all those picking clusters,bar slants,et cetera.To me it seems as though picking up pedal/knee lever technique would be way easy for a nonpedal player,so I'd say what the heck-go all in and get a D-10 or maybe even a U-12. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2010 2:13 pm
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| I also have an old Shobud, like the one I believe you are referring to. The really great thing about Rack and Barrel Shobuds is the complete ease with which they can be changed around. It's very simple to do. They're the easiest guitar for experimenting with tunings and changes. I don't think you should be intimidated by 6 pedals and a couple of knees. Put the changes you want on a couple of the pedals. You'll be able to experiment and add other changes as they come into your brain. And,,, they will! |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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John Rosett
From:
Missoula, MT
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Posted 25 Nov 2010 10:33 am
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Thanks for the replies everyone!
As far as going for an E9, I'm afraid that I'm going to stick with a tuning that I'm familiar with. Another thing that I have a hard time with is the narrow string spacing that a 10 string pedal steel has. It seems like I read somewhere that the old Fender 400's have a more standard guitar string spacing. I play lap steel the same way I play guitar, with a flat pick and fingers. Years ago, I played banjo in a bluegrass band, and one of the reasons I quit was that I just couldn't stand the thumb and finger picks. When I started playing steel, I bought some, but I found them really irritating. So I guess that I'm going to start hunting for an affordable Fender 400 and a good machinist! |
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Billy Tonnesen
From:
R.I.P., Buena Park, California
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Posted 25 Nov 2010 1:34 pm
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| IMHO, there is a style of Steel that could be called "Hybrid Steel". If you are comfortable playing lap steel style, then if you get a Pedal and Knee lever equipped Guitar, use the pedals and knee levers to expand lap steel chords and make some of the simple major and 6th chords where you can have three and four string diminishes, augmenteds, major 7ths, etc. Once you tune your guitar and set up pedals for the E9th you are entering a whole new world of very complex Steel Guitar playing. You will be constantly playing with your feet and knees as well as your hands. |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2010 1:49 pm
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| If you find a Fender 400 that is working you shouldn't need a machinist, from what I've heard. I believe the pedal "pulls" are easy to change on these guitars without machine work. There are quite a few Fender PSG devotees on the Forum who can help you more than I. |
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John Rosett
From:
Missoula, MT
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Posted 25 Nov 2010 2:16 pm
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| Thank you, Billy! "Hybrid steel" is my goal. |
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Larry Chung
From:
San Francisco, CA, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2010 3:40 pm
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Hi John:
Another vote for an older Fender 400. 8 strings, up to 6 pedals, most have only 4 pedals, no messing with levers, you'll be able to raise/lower two strings per pedal. That's a pretty good array of changes for 8 strings. Great tone, too!
Not as portable as a 7-string lap steel, kinda heavy, but very cool nonetheless. There were a bunch of these made, too, so not even impossible to find...
Keep warm up there!
LC |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Michael Maddex
From:
Northern New Mexico, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2010 4:43 pm Fender 400
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John, yet another vote for the Fender 400. I was in a similar place to you a few years ago. I had some chops with the lap steel and thought that some pedals were just what I needed, so I bought a Carter-Starter and learned some E9 stuff. That was fun, but not what I am really after. Then I found a used Fender 400, put my own primitive idea of a copedant on it, which is probably still evolving with time, and haven't really played the E9 since. So I say, get a Fender, put a sixth tuning on it and see what happens.
You can learn some more about the Fenders here at the Fender Steel Guitar Forum:
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Fender_Steel_Forum/index.php
I'm not a pro player, just a back porch picker, so you can take this for what it's worth. Anyway, HTH, Good Luck, and Have Fun!
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"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." -- Arthur C. Clarke |
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Tim Tweedale
From:
Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Posted 26 Nov 2010 10:57 am
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take the plunge and grab that nice C6 Sho-bud S-10 in the classifieds! Just pace yourself and figure it out one pedal at a time.
You'll find that the pedals are arranged in a really logical fashion and some work to save you some of the "heavy lifting" of slants.
Good luck!
-Tim |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2010 5:43 pm
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Jeff Newman still has some great C6 instruction material available. I highly recommend it. I did just like you. Started out on C6 non pedal and moved to S10 pedals. It has worked great. I don't get that classic E9 country sound. But i'm really not interested in it. Like you, I'm interested in just playing combinations I can't get without pedals.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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John Rosett
From:
Missoula, MT
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Posted 28 Nov 2010 11:34 am
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| Larry Bell wrote: |
(Darth Vader voice . . .)
L U K E --- COME ON OVER TO THE DARK SIDE
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I always thought that the lap steel WAS the dark side. |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 28 Nov 2010 5:46 pm
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Pedals and knee levers let you be lazy... 
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Lawyers are done: Emmons SD-10, 3 Dekleys including a D10, NV400, and lots of effects units to cover my clams... |
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