Steel V Steel

[Rusty Rhoads]

your on jamie when i figure out when were what time i will call you on it

[Bill Moran]

Rusty, You know ,in the real world, that is not the way to compaire guitars. You start with your setup. Tape that then set another guitar in place of yours. Take 5 min. to tweak it then tape that. Do that with all guitars involved.
At the end of the day we have listened to Rusty ! Very simple.
You can't hook different guitars to a amp with the same EQ setting and make a comparson. Too many varaibles between guitars.
I know I will get shot down on this one !!

[Jim Cohen]

No, you're right, Bill. Nobody cares how a guitar sounds when using somebody else's EQ and setup. All one should care about it how it sounds AFTER you've tweaked it to get as close to the sound you want from each guitar, adjusting EQ, etc. Only THEN (maybe) is a comparison worthwhile.

[Don Brown, Sr.]

I could be wrong, but what I think Rusty is saying is, he's getting a baseline on each steel.

Tweaking amps etc., certainly wouldn't be a baseline of the steel itself. Nor would be, using reverb. Too many variables would come into play. Whereas, using the same volume pedal, same amp with the same settings on each one, could (possibly to a degree) give a baseline on the differences.

Most any steel should sound relatively good regardless. I'd be more interested in comparing the amount of sustain, at (and above) the 12th fret with the different steels.

There is one more thing. The strings alone can and do make a big difference, such as: old, New, the gauges used, whether Stainless or Nickel, wound 6th or plain, manufacturer brands and on and on.

So my after thought is, I don't think much of anything would be gained. But then too, most of the time, I'm wrong.

[Franklin]

Bill, Jim, and Don,

I'm with you........There are obvious differences between guitar brands to each individual player....Unfortunately there is no accurate test to prove that theory.....First, there are too many flaws within the human element alone........At the end of the day we will all choose to play what we like the best. Hearing someone sound different on each guitar will not influence musicians who have the hearing gift to discern tone for themselves.

This is something to consider......Does anyone really believe any player can pick the same song, the same exact way, giving each note the same exact pressure of touch with both hands, while maintaining the exact same amount of vibrato for each note and picking in the exact same position.......Any variance within the last two alone changes the tonal delivery of each instrument. ....... If anyone believes there is someone who can do this, I have some oceanfront property here in Nashville for sale......This is humanly impossible. Unless Rusty is a computerized machine his touch, vibrato and right hand position will vary a lot with each recording of the same song......In short his hands will create as many tonal variations as there are differences between guitar designs.

I also noticed the proposed test is overlooking the sonic variables between types of strings, nickel and stainless steel, and string guages, for an example the 020 plain sounds thinner than an 022 wound, or a 021 plain, and the age of the strings.....new strings sound much brighter and sustain longer than strings that are weeks old...........And then there are tonal differences within the types of pickups to consider, how many windings they have changes the tonal perception.........So if one guitar has E66's and the other 705's what exactly is causing the difference in tone.......The test at the end of the day will only raise more questions than it answers....... the obvious tonal variables these above elements bring into the proposed equation are indisputable. ........

Its pretty easy for anyone to test the validity of what Don and I pointed out here......change strings or pickup brands, or move the right hand around while picking, or pick hard and then softer, to hear the variances.

Paul

[Pete Finney]

So, is this to happen in Nashville, or have you relocated back to Detroit, Rusty?

You gonna do this in Nashville or in Detroit?

[Ryan Barwin]

Sure, there are lots of variables to consider, but controlling those variables doesn't really make the test any more valid.

Obviously, different guitars sound best with different pickups, strings, and EQ settings. If you were to use the same strings and EQ settings for all the guitars, some would sound better than others because the strings and settings are better suited to those particular guitars. Realistically, a good sound comes from a combination of the guitar, with all the variables optimized to make the guitar sound its best. So it would make more sense to use the strings that are on there (as long as they're not too old).

Also, your technique is going to change depending on what guitar you're playing. You don't play a Sho-Bud with the same technique as an Emmons or a Franklin. It changes in order to get the best tone out of the guitar. So if the technique was consistent in all the tests, it would be biased towards certain brands.

What would make the most sense would be to use a reasonably standard amp (like a Nashville 400 or 112) and dial in the best possible tone within the limitations of the amp. It's been demonstrated repeatedly that an amp like that can sound great with any brand, as long as it's EQ'ed right. The volume pedal would also have to be the same.

The strings should be whatever ones are on there already; we can assume that the owner chose the strings that would sound best on that particular guitar, and that they're changed reasonably often.

And the technique shouldn't be consistent...it should be varied in order to get the best possible sound out of each guitar.

Anyway, cool idea...look forward to seeing the video. I'd offer my guitars, but I'm a long way from Nashville.

[Rusty Rhoads]

sounds like paul is saying my pickin hand aint steady i guess lol here is the whole thing in a nut shell my guitar is going first against all the rest i will set the amp and and leave it alone not touching any knobs and after i play a little on mine then bring the next and the next to see which way these go in tone more treble more bass not as much sustain who knows ?

this is just going to show either weak points or strong points about a steel's over all tone and what it sounds like compared to mine and then we can do a reverse by elimination then start with the second best sounding steel..

start over set the amp for it and compare to the others to see in what order these tone's are in as far as the guitar goes just plain raw tone period no frill's bells or whistles .

then once they are all in order then we will compare the top 5 guitars to see how it all falls together in what order the top 5 go in and we can vote on this do a survey says type deal.....and yes formica does colors your tone period not enhance it !!!!

Rusty

[Per Berner]

Why not ask Bobbe Seymour to do it, or at least in his store? His inventory would probably cover most common steel models...

[Franklin]

Rusty,

Yes, I'm saying you or any player who plays with soul never plays with the same attack and emotion on every note, everytime.......I was giving you credit as a soulful player, do you believe you are a soulless player?

Paul

[Joe Casey]

[Richard Damron]

Rusty -

In my first post on this thread I questioned the validity of this experiment due to a number of variables. Several of the variables have been delineated by other members - there are more.

I really think that you should take a deep breath and do some of that pondering that I spoke of. The attention will be in the details and, thus far, you've left many of the details wanting.

[Franklin]

Rusty,

.....There are those of us who love and prefer the tonal enhancement the formica aluminum neck combinations provide over the all wood scenario........Paul

[chris ivey]

well i dont know bout the rest of you but im looking forward to the big rusty steel tone shootout of 2011 guess he can play good on any copedant 12 string exte
nded or universal and crazy individual setups and lefthanded this could make rusty famous and maybe he can get a job with the nice people in nashville then like he deserves

[Gary Lee Gimble]

Chris, me too, looking forward to said steel laboratory show down. As previous stated, multiple locations for this event have been addressed or suggested; possibly one piece of real estate for sale. Personally, I'll opt for the beach front property whilst our host serves hors d'śuvre and cocktails. I lean towards a 1979 jeroboam, Comtes Champagne Rose' by Taittinger.

[Alan Brookes]

Bring it on. I'm interested to listen.

[Joe Casey]

[Paul Sutherland]

Rusty's proposed testing could never PROVE anything; there are far too many variables for this to be considered a valid scientific test. But it might be interesting, nevertheless, to hear what differences in tone can be detected.

"Ranking" the steels, or trying to determine which is "Best", will only undermine the value of the exercise, and yield endless arguments. I would not be interested in anybody else's opinion regarding the tone of the different guitars. I only want to hear the samples so I can make my own decisions.

I am also concerned that Rusty has shown more than a bit of bias in his comments. Most notably regarding formica and aluminum versus all wood. I play a formica and aluminum Emmons PP, and it is a far superior sounding steel TO ME than any of the all wood guitars I have owned; Fender, MSA, ZB, Sho-Bud, and Rus-ler.

Rusty, you need to put aside any such biases if you hope to have your work product taken seriously. Play your best with each steel and don't offer your opinions as to which steel you prefer. Don't claim that you proved anything.

Having said that, I hope you do go forward with the exercise, and I thank you, in advance for your efforts.

[Joe Casey]

[Kevin Hatton]

Burp...

[Gary Lee Gimble]

]

[Richard Damron]

Rusty -

Please supply the details and your evaluation of the following:

(1.) Will ALL tests be performed in the studio? The SAME studio?

(2.) Will the recording equipment be the same for all tests? Will a given brand of pickup be chosen to be used on all instruments?

(3.) A valid comparison between instruments cannot be made while one is tinkering with the knobs on an amplifier. Better to record each instrument FLAT - that is, with a studio quality amplifier whose frequency response is essentially dead flat from 20HZ to 20KHZ - and NO EQ! Any innate differences between guitars will be accurately recorded. One could then play back the recordings through their favorite amplifier and tweak the knobs to their hearts content. May have to "pad" the signal so as not to overload the preamp stage.

(4.) After FRANKLIN: - The musical composition chosen for the test should be played many times over with attention paid to technique and expression. One of the tracks should be chosen as the benchmark for the test and every attempt should be made to duplicate this chosen benchmark for every instrument under test. Further, a couple of DIFFERENT tunes should be chosen so as to accentuate different nuances. Failing in that, Paul's remarks take precedence.

(5.) What are the acoustics of the room in which the reviewer attempts to make the aural comparison? Is it studio quality or more like my garage? 10,000 guitar players - 10,000 different rooms. There WILL be a difference.

(6.) Is the amplifier used by the reviewer first-rate or a cobbled-up piece of junk sold at WalMart?

(7.) How old is the reviewer and what is the condition of their ears? This subject has been hashed over here on the Forum several times before. Some 20-somethings can hear a dog-whistle. Many middle-aged people have "holes" or bandwidths in which the ear's response is diminished. You wouldn't want me to be your prime arbiter as these 75 year-old ears suffer from a greatly reduced high-frequency response. Most older people suffer the same malady. Although the frequency bandwidth of the PSG is limited, some of the higher overtones wouldn't necessarily register through such ears.

(8.) Giving the names of the various PSG's beforehand is counterproductive. It has been shown many, many times here on the Forum that a brand name alters one's perception as to what is good, bad, or indifferent. Folks should be allowed to make their choices beforehand - blind as to brand - and then possibly be surprised at their selection of best of breed. Witness your blatant claim of mica superiority over wood.

This post is, in no way, an attempt at a comprehensive critique of your proposed test and includes some of the concerns of other members. To refute your claim early in this thread - there ARE variables and it would take much more effort than you describe to eliminate or reduce the effect of them all.

Once again. I think that you should do some more ponderin'.

As it stands, I will not be a participant in any post-test poll or survey. It will be meaningless.

With all due respect,

Richard

[Bent Romnes]

Richard, I would say that you pretty well covered it all with that post.
I think an issue like this is best left to the individual player and what appeals to his or her ears.
Thanks for a clear post!

[Richard Damron]

Thanks, Bent.

In my view, it is too much of a complicated issue to be resolved in clinical fashion. Besides - as you intimate - in the final analysis it all boils down to a personal preference which, in turn, is colored by the variables surrounding the person making the judgement. Name your personal poison, folks, and the rest of the world be damned!

My guitar is BLACK mica trimmed in gold and it sounds significantly better than your old curly maple wooden box! Now, THAT should please Rusty! Tongue in cheek, folks - tongue in cheek.

Respectfully,

Richard