40s Rickenbacker "Electro B" for only $600??

[Steinar Gregertsen]

Came across this one, it's offered for only $600,- isn't that very cheap for a model like this? Can you spot anything that looks out of place here?







Never had a Rickenbacker before, this one looks tempting....

It even comes with case:

[Ben Elder]

Very late '40s. Maybe not '40s at all. When did the ashtray and tailpiece appear? (If you could see the Kluson housings, that might tell you something. Stamping, if any, and whether tuner shaft goes all the way through the housing.)

[Steinar Gregertsen]

Thanks Ben, there are more pics here that may help identify it.

[David Matzenik]

Steinar, I know you follow the auctions of guitars on Ebay like many of us. We have seen starting prices asked for this model usually a few hundred dollars more. But this is a less than pristine example of a model that is not considered the best by some players. Those tail pieces are clunky. The finish of old guitars always look better in photos than in reality. So, if it does infact sound as good as they say, and that is the clincher, I think the price is about right. That being said, I'd hold out for a seven string with 1 and 1/2 inch horse-shoes.

[Richard Shatz]

Steinar,
I know you are a great player.
I don't know if you are a collector.
I'm a collector. It's not a perfect collector's piece, but if you like it, you should go for it.
It's a BD6. They are fairly rare.
The one I have sounds really good.
As I see the market, it's hard to find a surfboard with 6 strings and a pickup that plays well for $600 in the Eurozone. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Richard

[Jon King]

Steinar, I think Ben is correct. Rickenbacher started with the peghead cover like pictured in '49 on their deluxe model. Not wanting to spark a huge debate here, I'll just comment that I've found 1 1/4" pickups that stand up to 1 1/2"s & vice-versa. They were able to utilize a slightly smaller pickup as technology improved & alloys were found that had better characteristics. For example: Magnetic strength & durability. There is variation in the old p'ups. Some 1 1/2"s are better than others. Same goes for the 1 1/4"s. I've tested & played a fair sampling. IMHO; Barring other problems, if the magnets are strong, they all have good output. They may have differences in signal translation due to other factors. But if you like the Ricky sound. It's hard to go wrong. If you get one with weak magnets, recharge them. It's easy to test & easy to do. And easy to build a gauss meter if you'd like. Just search online. That being said, the only way to really judge any particular guitar, of course, is to play or at least listen to it.
I'd love to hear you play on a guitar with a good horseshoe pickup. If you ever get out this way, my door is open & I'd be happy to share. I don't mean for this to be a plug, but you might have interest in checking our store site for some of our recent guitars.

[Jon King]

Steinar,
I know you are a great player.
I don't know if you are a collector.
I'm a collector. It's not a perfect collector's piece, but if you like it, you should go for it.
It's a BD6. They are fairly rare.
The one I have sounds really good.
As I see the market, it's hard to find a surfboard with 6 strings and a pickup that plays well for $600 in the Eurozone. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Richard

Copy that!

[Steinar Gregertsen]

But if you like the Ricky sound. It's hard to go wrong.

Good point,- I'm not really sure if I know what the "Ricky sound" is. On the vintage recordings I've heard they sound incredibly smooth and warm, and I love that, but my only experience with a horseshoe pickup was the exact opposite, it sounded very trebly and harsh and I had to roll off all the treble on the lap steel to get a useful tone from it. It wasn't a Ricky, but the pickup was supposed to be an original vintage, and I had it shipped to Rick Aiello for a check before it was shipped to me. If I remember correctly Rick wrote that most vintage recordings were done with the treble rolled off on both the guitar and amp.......?

I never keep "wall hangers", I can't afford to plus I feel it's better to pass them on to someone who'll actually play the instrument than to keep it hanging on a wall in my studio. So my instruments has to be 'players'.

[Jon King]

Well....It sounds like you had an off experience. I think quite highly of Rick Aiello & put a lot of stock in his opinion. But I wonder what testing he did. Your description struck me as sounding like a low strength magnet. My experience is the Ricky sound (or any other) can be as variable as hand winding, magnetic strength & factors like string type, gauge & distance from the pup (or magnet) can influence it. But, if the sound is weak & tinny, recharging the magnet should bring it up to snuff. Although using words to describe sound, especially tonal nuances, can be riven with differences in perception; the Ricky sound runs from clear & trebly to dark & bass ridden. The control over tone is quite variable. Or they can easily be overdriven with major sustain. David Lindley's playing on so many of Jackson Browne's recordings is a good example. But you can get close to, if not emulate other distinctive sounds as well. Like Sonny Landreth, Warren Haynes, Derek Trucks, Duane Allman, or even Jimi. Check YouTube for Hexx Henderson playing the Star Spangled Banner http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3OZ_uEF ... re=related
or I found this other example of a Ricky tone at another point of the spectrum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DDpYTtk ... re=related
Having said that, my favorite guitar is my own design. Seen in my avatar. My favorite vintage sound came from a non-Ricky horseshoe. Meissner made horseshoe p'ups around 1936-1938. Those in a wood bodied Oahu (Tonemaster or Diana Deluxe) produced my favorite vintage sound(s). But recently I acquired a wood bodied Rickenbacher you can see in another post in this forum. That rivals the Oahu. Then come the Ricky Bakelites, Supros, etc. Each one unique. Different guitars for different sounds or moods. I'm thinking the best way to determine if one has the sound you'd like is to listen to a model played many ways. When I looked at You Tube for Hexx's link, I found quite a few examples. I hope that helps.

[Matthew Dawson]

Jon, are the Meissner horseshoes the ones that would have been in old Epiphone Electars?

[Bill Creller]

Bobby Ingano gave me a bakelite identical to that one, some years ago. We figured it was like a '50 (?) anyway, I gave it back to him when I acquired a 7 string. It was a typical nice sounding bakelite. And 600 bucks is a great price!

[Kelvin Monaghan]

Hey Steiner B6s are great steels I have owned several and at at present own a nice pre war b6 ,however I am not sure you would get on too well with one,listening to your type of music.
They do not stay in tune in a live situation ,turn on the stage Par lights and your constantly tweaking the tuning big time,secondly if you use high gain or overdrive the microphonic horseshoes squeal like crazy,you need to roll back the vol and tone drastically,they don't like stomp boxes and are very bright.

Lindley got a great sound thru a dumble amp but also the same tone with a Supro and a National ,more the amp than the instrument possibly and of course his wonderful touch.

Having said that they do sound magical thru a vintage low wattage tube amp,and great recording steels.

Just a few experiences and thoughts.

Cheers Kelvin

[Bill Creller]

I believe you called it Kelvin. Very temp sensitive for keeping in tune, which is one of the reasons JB went to different steels, from what I heard. TV studio lights were likely brighter and hotter in the old days too, before better cameras etc. Like you say though, wonderful through tube amps.......

[Ray Shakeshaft]

I have a B6 of around the early 1940s era. I keep hearing about the difficulties of them staying in tune but I have no such problems with mine though it is not subjected to great temperature swings. As for the sound - well should I fall on hard times it would be the last one I would sell. I was very much influenced by Ray Montee's and Gerald Ross's appreciation of them and I can understand why.

[Jon King]

Jon, are the Meissner horseshoes the ones that would have been in old Epiphone Electars?

That's correct, Matthew.
They have a great sound, although my preference is in a wood body. Sort of old school I guess. I just like the way wood resonates with vintage p'ups.
That's not to cast aspersions on other body materials. They just give a different characteristic to an instrument.
Another of my favorites practically has no body at all. It's a Harmos. With more of just a carbon fiber frame with some great pickups.

[Steinar Gregertsen]

Thanks everyone! I'll probably stick with my original plan,- save enough money for a new steel from Tom Pettingill or Lap King..

[Ray Montee]

I can't imagine WHY anyone (especially, the thrifty minded) would want to spend money on a 'new' g'tar.......

when so much can be had by way of purchasing a used
Ric Bakelite.

They were light years ahead of their time and when carefully matched with an amp of that era, 8" Rola speakers..........

The sound cannot be equalled.

New guitars are great...........but many are sorely lacking in 'fine' tonal qualities. IMHO

I have twelve Ric's and and have not encountered the problems I continue to read about here on the SGF.

[Bill Creller]

There's just nothing like a bakelite!!

(except that I really want a long-scale, early hollow neck frypan!)

[Steinar Gregertsen]

I can't imagine WHY anyone (especially, the thrifty minded) would want to spend money on a 'new' g'tar.......

As much as I love vintage instruments, and lap steels in particular, there are several factors that has made me choose new instruments as my main 'workhorses':

1 - Reliability. There's not many vintage lap steels here in Norway, and the few I've seen for sale has often been priced ridiculously high (a friend was once offered approx $1,200 for his Gibson BR-9), meaning I have to buy them from abroad, without testing them first. So I've had mixed experiences with vintage lap steels, some (like my new Oahu Tonemaster) have been serious players, while others have turned gigs into nerve wrecking experiences because of electronics or tuners suddenly failing,- stuff like that. I need to be able to trust my instruments to deliver, both on stage and in studio.

2 - If no one supports today's luthiers and buy the instruments they make, no more lap steels will be made and we will be left with fewer and fewer instruments as the old ones 'fall apart'.
While I agree that many of the vintage instruments has a tone that is hard to find in the new ones (for better or worse), who knows what an Asher, LapKing, GeorgeBoard, Pettingill, and all the other high quality instruments being made today, will sound like 60 years from now? Unfortunately very few of us will be around to find out, but I've always believed 60 years of playing does add a certain 'magic' to an instruments tone (as long as it's a good one to start with).
So I don't automatically accept that if I could travel 60 years back in time and compare a 'new' vintage to a LapKing Rodeo for example, the vintage would be better.

3 - Style. Many of today's players grew up on the electric guitar tone of rock and blues, and that probably influence our choices of instruments. The new instruments I've owned (Asher, LapKing, GeorgeBoards) handle that tone better than most vintages, while still being able to recreate the classic lap steel tone of the 'golden age' fairly well (but I'm the first to admit I'm far from an expert on that style).

I love vintage instruments, and if I could afford to I'd gladly fill up a wall in my studio with them, but for the everyday workhorse I prefer a new one that I can rely on, and I know there's a builder somewhere I can yell at if it fails me...

[Mitch Crane]

I think I'd have to side with Steinar on this one... I love vintage instruments but for a gigging musician, the reliability of a new guitar is a must for confidence on a job... Unless your vintage axe is proven road-worthy (Steinar, so how did the Oahu hold up on the recent gigs ?)

The vintage stuff is great to have around for the pleasure, the history, the ascethics, the tone ..and for recording, but for constant live work, I'd trust my Asher Electro Hawaiian more than any vintage guitar that may sound better (subjective to a live audience). Reliability wins out for the live performer over vintage sound I think ? YMMV ?

Wow Ray... TWELVE RICS ? Really ? Geeze... Is that YOU in your avatar ? If so, makes sense cuz you look like a rich guy.

[Danny Bates]

I've got a Ric exactly like that one. That is a killer deal for a world class steel guitar. I agree with Bill Creller 100% on his statement. The only other guitar that might compare is a frypan.

I also have a 1935 Bakelite and there's not much difference in the tone between the two. Never had tuning problems on stage.

I posted a YouTube clip comparing my '35 bakelite to my wooden Rickenbacker. Same brand, guage and age of strings. To me the wooden Ric sounds great on solos but the Bakelite has a sound of it's own. You should hear it through a loud clean amp. Unbelieveably great. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4ZGfunotN8

[Richard Shatz]

There's just nothing like a bakelite!!

(except that I really want a long-scale, early hollow neck frypan!)

Just pull the trigger.

[Rick Aiello]

It wasn't a Ricky, but the pickup was supposed to be an original vintage, and I had it shipped to Rick Aiello for a check before it was shipped to me. If I remember correctly Rick wrote that most vintage recordings were done with the treble rolled off on both the guitar and amp.......?

I think quite highly of Rick Aiello & put a lot of stock in his opinion. But I wonder what testing he did. Your description struck me as sounding like a low strength magnet.

I remember the Asher well ...

As far as what I "tested" ...

The magnet saturation was at a max ... around 210 gauss - midgap ... standard fully charged Ricky magnets ...

And the coil ... which was an "Asher" wound coil, not a Ricky ... was probably wound with 42 AWG magnet wire ... to a DC resistance of around 8 kOhm ...

He didn't use 38 AWG ...

Mike Neer ended up with that pickup unit ... if I remember correctly ...

Anyway ..

As I explained to Steinar ... a fully charged Ricky is gonna be very bright ... regardless of its composition ... IE: Bakelite, Cast Aluminum, stamped steel or Wood ...

Treble roll off ... guitar and/or amp ... is very common in Ricky Players.

The "Standard" Jerry Byrd move ... is to start with the guitar's treble all the way off ... then bring it up till you ... first hear a "change".

Amp's bass on 10 ... Amp's treble basically off.

I was speaking with a few folks at Joliet this year ... and we agreed that all the "Byrd's Nest Artists" ... Paul Kim, Isaac Akuna and Casey Olsen ... all played with very little treble ... regardless of guitar.

Original frypans ... without some kinda of treble roll off (mostly amp) ... can peel paint off walls ...

[Ron Simpson]

Aloha Rick,

Once again you've hit the nail on the head. I recall my first experience with a Rickenbacker Bakelite, I found it to be very bright and sterile sounding. I was totally unimpressed. My only experience up until that time had been Gibson steel guitars. The solid mahagony models like the ES-125 were my favorite. The tone controls were always fully clockwise on full treble, with the timber itself providing the warmth. I really didn't get what all the hype was about. On my second romp with a Rickenbacker Bakelite, I used the tone control for the first time only to find that is where the magic starts. I suspect that if I were to come upon an old Rickenbacker with a single volume control, I would probably convert it into a tone control instead, which seems more useful to me.

Sorry, I promised myself I wouldn't do any more of these long winded replys.

[Danny Bates]

The tone of a Bakelite is a very long ways from the tone of a mahogany bodied guitar. Probably it's tonal opposite.

I don't know how much Hawaiian music Steiner is planning on playing but to me the amount of treble horseshoe pickups have is second (in greatness) only to the wonderful low growl the wound strings have.... and oh yea.. their "juevos".

But it's a subjective thing. I guess I fell for the "hype"