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Topic: Emmons LL III Question |
Arthur Manning
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2010 9:48 am |
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What is the function of the center object on the Bridge Fingers (changer) on my new Emmons LL III? I noticed that the adjustment screw has been back out and is not touching that part?? Also what is that part called and how is it adjusted as I have never owned a Emmons before? Thanks again and hope I am not asking to many questions on this forum, Art M.
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 1 Nov 2010 12:10 pm
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That's the visible part of the anti-detuning device. I don't know how to adjust them (someone on here will!), but I don't think that the corresponding 'adjustment screw' plays any part in the process. Setting them up happens under the guitar if I'm not mistaken.
Dave Robbins fixed mine, but then his abilities with the Emmons LeGrandes borders on witchcraft!!!
Is yours a D-10 or an SD-10? Commonly the counterforce unit (its official name) is only fitted on the E9 neck.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2010 12:38 pm
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Hi Art,
I am assuming you are talking about the "yoke" that is between string 5 and 6, that replaces the center "spacer" between all the other changer fingers.
If so, that is the part that PUSHES against the rock solid axle; that "counters" the cabinet drop force; which causes strings to flatten; when OTHER strings are raised.
Note the following photo:
The yoke is shown at the top of the photo that pushes (to the right) against the axle of the changer. This movement (geared down by a 20-1 ratio), is a result of a "reversal" lever that is attached to the yoke.
This reversal lever is what is attached to that long rod; that goes thru adjusters; located in 4 hole* bellcranks; on Pedal A, B and C crossrods.
So let's run thru a typical scenario.
Begin with a LeGrande II
It has none of these parts.
1. If you engage the A, B or C pedals, strings that are NOT raised will lower in pitch, on EVERY LeGrande II, IN the world.
2. IE; pedal A string 6 is the biggest offender. Pedal B string 4 and 5 are the one's. Pedal C string 6 is the one.
Now let's purchase a guitar like yours. A LeGrande III
1. The factory has installed a "counterforce" option, which consisis of:
A. A long pull rod.
B. It is attached to a "reversing lever"
C. It is attached to a yoke.
D. It is attached to a lever that replaces the center spacer on a LeGrande changer.
E. ON this rod; there are 3 brass "Adjusters". One each on pedal A, B and C.
Now....
1. When you engage Pedal A (as an example), a 4 hole bellcrank pushes on that adjuster.
2. It pulls on the long rod.
3. It pulls on the reversing lever.
4. It pushes on the part you are talking about.
5. It pushes on the lever that takes the place of the center spacer on the changer.
6. It pushes on the changer axle,
BUT..................................
It does NOT move said axle. It counters the force of the strings; that is causing the cabinet to "drop"; which FLATTENS some strings; WHEN other strings are raised.
The best analogy the Lord has given me, to try and explain it is:
Assume a child was sitting in a wagon whose front wheels are against a concrete wall. And the wheels of that wagon are on a slight incline.
The child does not have enough strength to move the wagon away from the wall with his feet against the ground.
If the Lord causes him to realize (this may or may not happen with a given child), that IF he presses against the wall with his feet, the wagon will move away from the wall.
Voila!
The wagon moved away and got on flat ground, and away he goes!!!
Whopppee! 
"Look mommy, Look what I can do."  And he repeats it, smilin' from here to eternity.
Now the child did NOT understand how it happened. And he does NOT care. All he knows is, every time his wagons gets wedged against that concrete wall, all he has to do is push against it.
Now I ask all steel players that care, DID THAT CONCRETE WALL MOVE?
Yes or no?
ONLY if you are from "Rio Linda", or an idiot, would you say yes.
The child simply "countered" the force of the incline; by pushing against the wall in one direction; and his little body then pushed the wagon back up the incline.
And NOW you know the rest of the story.
THAT axle is NOT flexing; EITHER to cause the problem; NOR to cure it. It is an anchor point that "counters" the force; that is causing the CABINET to flex. Which are the strings that are being raised!!!!!!
END of story! 
Believe it or not!
Sincere questions, please ask! 
And may Jesus right ALL wrongs,
c.
* The 4 hole bellcranks in the drawing, are shown canted in the WRONG direction. If you are adept in levers, and leverage, the above explanation will tend to go against one's thinking process.
The bottoms of those bellcranks should be canted to the right; NOT the left.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Arthur Manning
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2010 2:22 pm
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Well thank you again Mr. Carl, If I consumed your explanation correctly the yoke part of the changer has no adjustments. Only the adjustments that you described in my last post. If so should the screw that is behind the yoke (that is shown extending out) in the photo be tighten up? As there is a gap between the end of the screw and the back of the yoke. Thanks, Art M.
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2010 2:45 pm
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Oh my dear friend Art.
That allen set screw is part of another "compensator" that allows us to "TUNE" the "splitting" of strings, when we use BOTH a raising AND a lowering pull at the SAME time.
ALL "counter force" parts are on the OTHER side of the axle.
Note: I have decided to make that my next debacle "creator"  . For I am going to "try" to explain WHY it is, that when you raise a string a half a tone, AND you lower it s whole tone at the same time, the resultant half tone lower, is OUT of tune. Even though you have tuned the raise AND the lower correctly! 
Wish me luck dear brother, because "wolf packs" lurk EVERY where! 
But Jesus told us it would happen. So that knowledge alone PROVES He was who He said He was!
Praise His holy name.
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Arthur Manning
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2010 3:20 pm
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| Mr. Carl, well I live and learn. If Emmons had a Instruction Owners Manual, maybe I would not Have all these questions. I say MAYBE?? Thanks always Art M. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2010 4:23 pm
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| Arthur Manning wrote: |
| Mr. Carl, well I live and learn. If Emmons had a Instruction Owners Manual, maybe I would not Have all these questions. I say MAYBE?? Thanks always Art M. |
Well,
Who would have written it?
Remember dear brother, gifted with a creative mind to invent things and/or build them; is NO guarantee one is gifted to explain it. Worse, write it down.
Particularly in a manner that is clear to the masses.
I loved him dearly. He was my mechanical mentor. He taught Physics in a University. He was truly a genious. Really!
But there is NO way he could have EVER written a manual that one could learn from. His mind was simply geared to teach only the top 2 in the above scenario. And even that would have had to be rhetorical.
You see, the better instructors in any endeavor of training, know that there is NO way ANY instructor can reach every one.
So a typical scenario in a classroom of 12:
1. 2 that would be absolutely bored to tears, UNLESS it was totally over the heads of the other 10.
2. 8 who can learn varying degrees of it, but NOT all of it.
3. 2 that are incapable of ever understanding ANY thing technical. Regardless of how simple it may seem to those born with mechanical aptitudes. (Sadly, my precious younger brother is one of them--so was my dad).
They live(d) in a world of fog, and it is really sad. Yet each of them get by, because Jesus ALWAYS sends them a "helper". In this case it was the eldest son of one of them, and the brother of the other one.
So the best instructors know instinctively (gift from Jesus) to "see" the class "mean" within moments, and teach to that. Otherwise you lose the maximum attainable.
One of my former dearest friends ON thie earth; the late AND great Gene O'neal (Charlie Pride's SG player for 13 yrs), had NOT a smidgeon of a clue what a single part was for, under his Emmons' P/P.
Yet, he could pick the "FAR" out of that PSG! He drove me crazy with his awesome "ear". If a single bellcrank "swivel" was to have fallen on the floor from under his guitar; and you laid ONE billion dollars on a table, and said,
"Gene that money is yours, if you can find out where it came from"; Gene would have said, "Keep your money Hoss!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwb_IrE_DTo
This is why "No child left behind is a farce!"
(Sorry b0b, couldn't hep just one teeny weeny one! Ok?  )
The late Garland Nash (one of Georgia's finest SG players) was the same. But sit him behind a lap or pedal steel, and he was truly a gift from heaven.
He could play "4 Weel Drive" on an 8 string Fender stringmaster, and NOT miss a lick. He truly epitomized the ole saying,
"He was never told he couldn't do it, so he went and did it!"
And in Garland's case, Absolutely perfect. I wanted to take a chain saw to my Emmons EVAH time I watched him play. 
Praise Jesus for spreading the wealth of blessings, without having to steal it thru taxing the gifted. Oops, did it AGIN b0b). I'm done now
Promise!
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Darrell Owens
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2010 11:33 pm
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Carl,
I have a LeGrande III and I will buy a user manual from you, if you will write it. My guitar stays in tune and plays perfectly, (Thanks to Bobby Bowman)
But, I would like to know more about what makes it work.
_________________
Zum Steel, Little Walter Amp, Benado Steel Dream
Darrell Owens
www.darrellowens.com |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 11:30 am
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| Darrell Owens wrote: |
Carl,
I have a LeGrande III and I will buy a user manual from you, if you will write it. My guitar stays in tune and plays perfectly, (Thanks to Bobby Bowman)
But, I would like to know more about what makes it work. |
Darrell,
I am honored and truly humbled you would buy a book that I wrote about the Emmons LeGrandes.
However, I must respectfully decline dear brother.
Reason:
"My get up and go has got up and went!"*
Please forgive, and may Jesus send you someone who WILL write it, and if HE does, you will throw rocks at ANY writing I could ever do. Cuz it would then be perfect. And NEVAH a need for,
"Carl I do NOT buy your explanation"
Or,
"I sincerely stand corrected!"
Thanks again.
c.
* Author unkown, yet quoted to death all over the world.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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J Hollenberg
From:
Vlaardingen, The Netherlands
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Posted 3 Nov 2010 6:54 am
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Here is the explanation of the split tuning
Good luck with it.
Greetings from The Netherlands
_________________
Sjaak Hollenberg
Emmons Lashley LeGrande SD10 from 1993 |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2010 7:42 am
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This is all good physics, no doubt.
But, might not the late great Jerry Byrd refer to this as "excess baggage".
I've heard him use this term before.
He could get more music from 7 or 8 strings than most of us can get from 20.
I've often wondered, that if it had not been for the "pedal craze"
and all players had put all musical effort into just music from the non-pedal guitar,
without all the mechanics, that the steel guitar might have evolved more into mainstream music today.
..just a thought. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2010 9:13 am
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| Rick Collins wrote: |
This is all good physics, no doubt.
But, might not the late great Jerry Byrd refer to this as "excess baggage".
I've heard him use this term before.
He could get more music from 7 or 8 strings than most of us can get from 20.
I've often wondered, that if it had not been for the "pedal craze"
and all players had put all musical effort into just music from the non-pedal guitar,
without all the mechanics, that the steel guitar might have evolved more into mainstream music today.
..just a thought. |
I agree with you 100% on what Jerry Byrd would say. Because I heard it for 60 yrs. It was totally predictable!
If you go to heaven and Red Foley is there, ask him!
Also, see under the facade of Bobby Lord's face;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN5XDwsj0TI
Jerry WAS truly THE master of touch and tone.
He WAS also one of the dearest friends I ever had.
And I miss him more than I could ever say.
But.............................
Jerry was also capable; at ANY moment night OR day; of saying things that later (admittedly) he should NOT have said!
Such as yelling beligerently to adoring fans; screaming for an encore; on the stage of the ISGC;.
"AWWWW SHUT UP!"
And not once, but several times on MORE than one appearance over the years!
He was NOT kidding (at the moment)
Which stunned my very dear and late wife soo much, she lost all respect. I suspect there were many others that felt similarly.
There is NO better example of this "Ole Satly Dog" demeanor; than when Jerry decide NOT to go pedals. Regardless of what he gave as the reason.
I KNOW him. We ALL have our faults. I stand guilty! Not proud of it, 'jes tellin' it like it is!
As I stand on this planet, he decided NOT to go because of pure unadulterated "professional jealousy". And on judgement day; when all truth is known; we will all know that; including Jerry.
I will also state, that when he realized what he deprived his adoring fans of (including himself), I am sure he would state loudly and clearly.
"I should have aquelched my pride and gone to pedals"
For IF he had, Buddy Emmons might just be second today! We will never know of course.
And I am positive he would be the FIRST to admit it.
Having said that, I STILL love, and admire Jerry with ALL my heart!
And no words could ever say how much I miss that ole salty dog! That sometimes, needed a muzzle!
May Jesus rest his precious soul,
Finally, the first thing I am going to do, after I hug my wife and kids again, is to hunt for him!
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Arthur Manning
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2010 11:55 am Split Tuning Adjustment
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I started this post with vary little understanding of a Emmons PSG and with a lot of questions on the workings of the Emmons. The posts from you all (Carl, Jack, Roger, Rick and Darrell) sure did enlighten me. I want to thank you all and hope there's more to come. Art Manning  |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2010 12:20 pm
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| Quote: |
| he decided NOT to go because of pure unadulterated "professional jealousy". |
Are you quite sure of that, Carl?
I have never met the man (Jerry) __ have only read his book and listened to his music.
I play both pedal steel and non-pedal.
Pedal steel guitar is interesting and entertaining for me.
But, I cannot sit in the audience and listen to a pedal steel player without reaching a saturation point quickly.
Of course, listening to a giant like Buddy Emmons is a different story.
For me the sound of non-pedal steel guitar as a listener in the audience
and playing for myself can hold my interest for hours.
Maybe it's just my particular taste in music. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2010 12:32 pm
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| Quote: |
| Are you quite sure of that, Carl? |
As sure as a heart attack. Jerry and I had many deep conversations about every facet of his unprecedented career.
He was truly one of my all time intimate friends.
I knew when I hit the "send" key above, that I was taking a terrible risk. But what I said, I believe to be true from the depths of my soul.
And I realize that I am probably going to be flamed from here to eternity. But that is ok. I will defend with my life a person's right to disagree.
But I stand on it. In fact, while he never said it directly, one night in Honolulu, he, my wife and I were having dinner at the Royal Hawaiian hotel; and the subject always comes up; about pedals of course.
And the perception was soooo strong, that I just knew he was having missgivings about it. But it was too late. The final curtain had fallen.
He was KING.
He went from KING to "who is that?" (so to speak) in a hearbeat when pedals came out. Producers wanted NO part of it. Even Chet Atkins (I am told) told him, "Jerry, you know I want you but they won't let me use you!"
What do you suppose producers and singers would have done, IF his decision had been reversed?
I rest my case. I have said all I have to say about it. If I am wrong, may Jesus and Jerry forgive me, for I love them both dearly, Jesus of course I love more.
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2010 8:14 pm
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Carl, I've been busy and am just getting back to post this reply.
I sent you an e-mail message. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2010 8:25 pm
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Ty Rick,
I will be looking for it dear brother,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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