Teaching Method -- Newman or Adams ? ?

[Bent Romnes]

Yes, b0b. We are saying essentially the same thing.

[Brint Hannay]

Just speaking for myself, I'd teach palm blocking first. I'm self-taught (and have never done any teaching), using the Winnie Winston book and a few other materials in the beginning, and found palm blocking took some getting used to when I was starting out--it didn't come naturally at all. Now, 26 years down the road, I think I have gradually come, unconsciously, to mostly do what is referred to as pick blocking, though I've never worked on that specifically, and don't really think in terms of blocking at all. But I'm sure palm blocking figures in to what I do, and it might not if I had been entirely on my own devices early.

I wouldn't know what to recommend for speed picking--I'm no good at speed picking with either type of blocking!

[Daniel Morris]

Is it true what I've been told, that pick blocking (however it was termed) was the standard in another generation? Looks like C. Dixon nixed that idea a bit. I learned during the '70s, and palm blocking was all I ever read or heard about. I found myself using pick blocking at times, without even knowing the term, why it worked well, or how I wound up using it . I now have a guitar student who wants to learn pedal steel, and although he hasn't reached the point where blocking can be worked on, I have already explained the different techniques, and will likely have him work on pick blocking a tad more than palm. I agree that the best way is probably to teach both up front - a beginner can then find his/her own way to what works best for staccato/fast notes.

[Bent Romnes]

Daniel, Pick blocking has been around for a long time.
Vance Terry showed this technique to pickers back in the mid 50's.

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Well, I've got to chime in here. Did anyone notice that Paul was teaching at age 14, and just possibly before that age.

He started out at 9 years of age. Self taught, and he had nothing but radio and records to learn from. And developed his own style of playing.

With no more information than that, it should tell everyone, what is possible with dedication and ambition, along with enthusiasm. A great story within itself.

Folks it just doesn't get any better than that. Learning the way Paul did, sure does make one a ton more savy when it comes to knowing where the sounds you're looking for are located on a Steel. Because, that is pure practice, and tons of hard work. Whether or not you ever get it, all depends on just how focused you are, and how hard you want to work at it, to get where you want to go in life with music.

I said all of that, because when it comes to blocking, that too comes from simply playing. There is no magic bullet for getting it right. It's work and dedication that will finally bring things all together, and nothing else will do it. Nobody can do it for you, they can show you, but in the end result, it's got to be you, who gets it right.

Whatever else you do, or who you learn from, won't make a pinch of difference, if you're not willing to put your time and effort into it. When I say put your time in, I'm not talking about a few minutes a day, or only a couple of hours. I'm talking about putting time in. Real time into it, and one day, you just might find yourself to where you want to be.

I know for a fact that David Hartley learned the old school way himself too. Just through hard work and dedication, of listening to tons and tons of old records, etc. And believe me, when you do it via records, that arm comes up and off the record, again, and again, over and over and over. I think we spent more time, with the player's arm, than what we did in playing, in order to get the licks down.

The bottom line is, with enough hard work and practice you'll get it right. I think all of the ones who are doing their best to show this and that, are doing a good job. But that's all they can do, the rest is entirely up to the individual. And it is the hard work that will eventually pay off.

PS: When I say we, it's in meaning anyone who learned the hard way. And it's definitely not to put myself into anyone else's catagory. Everyone is quite unique in his/her way of playing, as well as their own goals in life in general.

Practice does make it all come together, and how much one practices, will (to a large degree) determine exactly where you end up at, in the ability to play.

Wishing all the newest players the best for a very enjoyable and successful future.............

[Tom Stolaski]

I have been pick blocking for a while now, and I notice that during a fast tune you can't really hear the picks coming back down on the strings. During a slow song in the recording studio, when I put the picks down on the strings to block, I get a little metal to metal sound that sticks out like a sore thumb. It is a real challenge to get a clean sound. Anyone else have the same problem?

[Bob Hoffnar]

I'm pretty sure Joaquin Murphey, at least some of the time, was pick blocker also.

Ted:

During a slow song in the recording studio, when I put the picks down on the strings to block, I get a little metal to metal sound that sticks out like a sore thumb.

It seems to me that it is the same problem violin players have with that little scrape the bow makes on the string when they start a quiet long tone. I think you just practice your way through it. Its difficult.

The thought of changing amp settings or ducking with a volume pedal seems self defeating.

[Bent Romnes]

I don't think that the picks on strings sound is really that noticeable with the bar on the strings.. It is more pronounced on open stings.

[Joe Rogers]

For better or worse, my situation was a bit unique. Here in south Louisiana we have a history of really good Cajun steelers. The vast majority of these players started with Cajun music solely and learned by watching other Cajun steelers. I would venture to say 99% of these guys palm block. There is something about the syncopation of Cajun music that lends itself to the palm technique. I have played Cajun music since 9 years old, BUT....on acoustic rhythm, fiddle, or accordion. I didn't delve into Cajun steel until about 1 1/2 years ago.

My love for steel guitar came strictly from my love of country music, which far overshadowed my love of Cajun music. When I got my first steel, I knew of no one in my area who played country steel. When I first put my hands on my Sho Bud Maverick it was pick blocking. It was the only way I could figure out how to kill one note to pick the next one. When I knew I was serious about learning, I bought my next guitar from Herb Remington. As I was trying out the steels in his shop, the first words he said were, "You are playing all wrong. You need to turn your hand like this". I got home and tried playing that way.....for about 20 minutes. Six months later I went to Jeff Newman's week long school. First words out of Jeff's mouth were, "You are playing all wrong. You need to turn your hand like this". I figured two pros telling me the exact same thing meant I was wrong and I had to relearn.

I spent the next 2 years honing my palm blocking. I could play the most beautiful passages....as long as they were slow. I had zero speed. I made up my mind that I would simply never have any speed, it just wasn't in me. I went to Houston to get my next guitar and Herb told me, "Joe there's a new player in town, a kid by the name of Tom Bath. He plays this new technique called pick blocking. If you could learn this, it would triple your speed." I went out to hear Tom play, and later got with him to show me this magical new technique. It was then that I realized that was how I had originally started playing from the get-go. What I didn't anticipate was the fact that it literally took me TWICE as long to re-learn how to play it. I am forever indebted to Tom for taking the time to teach me, because it changed my playing forever.

Several years later I attended a speed picking seminar with Jeff Newman and Paul Franklin. I could tell that Jeff wanted to perfect his pick blocking, but the palm technique was so firmly entrenched it was difficult for him. Paul had mentioned experimenting with palm blocking, but he too gravitated to what worked for him. Watching the two of them interact and listening to their experiences and opinions on the two techniques, shaped the way I studied other players from that point onward.

What I am about to share is MY personal opinion. I am NOT saying this is even fact, I just feel very strongly my hunch is correct based on observations and conversations with players over the years. Please feel free to disagree with me, it can be a gray area.

A person is either right-handed, left handed, or different degrees of being ambidextrous. Ask a predominantly right handed person to eat or write left handed (or vice versa) and observe the difficulty. Yes, most can do simple tasks, but for the majority, it just never feels right to the point of switching totally to the other hand.

I personally feel that a person's mind is wired for either palm blocking or pick blocking. This is NOT to say that a person cannot become extremely proficient at both techniques. I have met players who are. But it does take an extraordinary amount of work for a person to play BOTH techniques with EQUAL skill. What I find more often is that a player will become a master at one technique, and very capable at the other.....but falling short of true mastery. After spending years analyzing BOTH techniques, there are aspects of each that are completely opposite of one another.....much like the opposite of being right or left handed. There are certain licks that "lay" well with one technique, yet are almost impossible to execute if using the other technique.

Case in point. Richard Comeaux is one of the best palm blockers I know. He has the fastest thumb I have ever seen.....bar none. He started in Cajun music and palm blocking was his natural way to block. He has worked hard at learning pick blocking, and while he is proficient at it, it comes nowhere close to his palm blocking skills. Like I mentioned above, pick blocking came natural for me; it is palming fast passages that is all but impossible for me. Richard and I have discussed this issue many times. There are simple, really simple passages that we have given each other to play, just to observe how the other executes them. Richard has trouble with certain "pick blocking dominant" lines, and I cannot execute the "palm blocking dominant" lines. We are both proficient players who can each blaze through the lines of our "naturally dominant" technique, yet cannot execute these simple passages of the other technique.

Yes, I know music is music. And I know that the more our minds really KNOW the lick, the easier the execution. A proficient player reaches a level where practicing a lick a few times brings about a finger memorization where they can execute a newly learned lick to a certain degree of skill. But what I am talking about here, are fairly simple licks that the same proficient player will have more difficulty executing to that profiency level IF the lick is predominant to the opposite blocking technique.

At the speed picking seminar, Jeff and Paul both stressed the importance of learning BOTH techniques if possible. I totally agree with that philosophy. Mickey, you mentioned earlier that blocking is blocking. I respectfully agree partially and disagree partially. I do agree that any method of getting the job done warrants perfecting that technique. The ONLY part I disagree with (again respectfully) is the tonal differences in both techniques. In the tonal department, there are differences. There is such a funkiness in the palm "chicken pickin" technique that cannot be duplicated 100% in pick blocking. You have to have a certain amount of flesh in there. Likewise, there is a cleanliness in a pure 100% pick blocking technique in the manner Paul mentioned above, where each note gets such a distinct clarity that cannot be achieved quite to that degree when the flesh is involved. The last statement by itself can be a subject of debate, and I don't want to open a can of worms on that one. It has been said that when an expert palm blocker plays a line that is classified as "blazing", a certain amount of pick blocking comes into play. Maybe, maybe not. I will end it there.

What I will say is this. I feel it is wrong to tell a newbie, "Play THIS way". I spent 2 extremely frustrating years trying to gain profiency in a technique that was totally opposite of the way MY mind is wired. Yes, I can palm block to a certain degree, but nowhere near the level of skill as my pick blocking. And I AM left handed, yet ambidextrous at the same time. I eat and write left handed, but everything else I do right handed.

On the contrary, it may be better to give a newbie a passage to learn, see if he/she naturally gravitates toward the picks or the palm, then steer him/her in THAT direction all the while making him/her aware of the opposite technique. Again, the bulk of this is only my personal opinion. I am not trying to lay down law here.

Before I close, I want to add one more insight into the pick blocking camp. When Herb Remington told me I was playing wrong, I asked him why I couldn't use the picks to block. He said, "Well....the picks make too much noise when you are using them to block". I know this issue was addressed in another thread. My personal answer to that is, when you practice the technique to perfection, pick noise will be the least of your worries. It does go away naturally. Please know that I am NOT taking away from the guidance given to me by Herb and Jeff. I would be nowhere on steel guitar had they not come into my life. I owe those two guys immensely.

Joe Rogers

[Ray McCarthy]

Are we talking mostly about single-note picking here? It seems to me it would be difficult to effectively pick block a 3 (or 4) string chord to move quickly to another chord using a different string group. I automatically palm block in that case.

[C Dixon]

Joe Rogers

Amen, amen and amen.

You said it ALL brother, It is doubtful I could EVER learn to pick block. It seems SO unnatural to me, EVEN when I see the masters do it. But this is possible because I was taught 62 yrs ago to palm block, and it is so ingrained in my brain, that I simply cannot pick block. End of story (for me).

May Jesus continue to bless the Paul Franklins and Joe Wrights, et-al, who are so cabable.

c.

[Joe Rogers]

Well Carl I really didn't want to write a novel last night, but I guess that's what happens when you are on an oil platform in the Gulf of Mexico with a lot of time on your hands.

Joe Rogers

[C Dixon]

No worries mate!

I loved it. Keep up the good work,

c.

[John McClung]

Paul, you mentioned here, and on your E9 video, the importance of making your middle finger, ring and pinky fingers of the right hand fused to work together. I don't think you got into further into explaining WHY that's so key, or showing how and why you use it.

Could you explain that more in depth here, please? Thank you so much. I've been wondering about this for years now!

[Herb Steiner]

Joe...
Very well put, my friend. Your use of the language is as clear and distinct as your most excellent steel playing, which totally knocks me out (as I told you in Dallas earlier this year). We even had a similar discussion at the TSGA Jamboree on this very topic.

Stay safe on that oil rig, brother!

Forum...
I started learning in the 1960's from listening to Emmons and Day, so I palm block. It comes easiest to me. I actually refer to it as "palm release technique" because in the default hand situation, when your right hand is at rest, the strings are muted naturally by the fleshy part of your palm. Only when the palm is very slightly lifted by the picking action is the string allowed to ring.

I do some of what I refer to as "semi pick blocking," but I'm not happy with my approach to that technique. It's more like a banjo approach of sets of 8th notes... 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2, or 1-2-1-2-3-1-2-3, or 1-2-3-1-2-1-2-3. Basically forward rolls and it only works for me in certain situations or in certain areas of the fretboard.

I also use, in certain situations and to a limited extent, the old Hawaiian technique of blocking with the ring and pinky fingers of the left hand. This involves raising the rear of the bar while the nose end is covering the strings you want to hit. This technique came naturally to me, after watching some old-timers play many years ago.

I think a major stumbling block to achieveing speed with palm blocking is the much-taught technique of two-finger picking, either T-I or T-M. It only makes sense that speed could be increased if another finger was allowed to enter into the job force. John McClung and I had this discussion a few years back when we were observing some players using predominantly T-I. It seems that with T-M, the index finger is held up and in an inopportune position to be brought into the fray, while with T-I the middle finger is more accessible and could be added into the mix when needed. We both decided to try to develop more T-I skill, but sadly, I haven't had the motivation to get off my butt and apply myself as much as I obviously need to.

[Joe Rogers]

Herb,

Thanks so much for your kind words. I really enjoyed meeting you in Dallas and do hope to see you again next year!

I think the light went off for me when you said, "semi pick blocking". Because palm blocking was drilled into me in those early years, I never totally shed it when I went back to pick blocking. As a result, most of my slower passages are palm blocking, with the hand rolling over to the left as I have to play with more speed. As I mentioned earlier, relearning pick blocking was twice as difficult. I found this to be odd since pick blocking came so natural to me in the beginning. It was this difficulty that led me to form my own theory that the two methods must be totally opposite in nature. It makes me wonder how my playing would have progressed had I remained in my original direction...

Mickey also brought up the mention of using the thumb and pinky to block. I use my thumb to block certain passages, but had never run across anyone who used the third or fourth fingers of the right hand until Murnel Babineaux attempted to explain his technique to me and Richard one night. Problem with learning from Murnel is that his fingers are like lightning......they hardly ever strike the same place twice.....

Seriously, that last method of blocking is extremely interesting......and one that I doubt I will grasp without some serious effort involved.

Joe Rogers

[Franklin]

Look at how both techniques are accomplished.

To Palm Block the pick rests above the string......1st move is to move the pick down to strike the string.......the 2nd move is to pull the pick away from the string to let it ring............3rd move is to block the string by resting the palm on the string after it has sustained to the desired length of time.

To Pick Block the pick rests on the string.......1st move is to pick the string which looks like someone pulling a bow string.......2nd move is to block the string by placing a pick back on the string after it has sustained to the desired length of time.

After reading how the techniques are accomplished it is clear the assumptions of which is better, easier, or which has an inherently longer sustain are void of facts to support the opinion. When a note is muted within either technique, it is a personal choice, not a technical limitation...........

The truth about both techniques........

Personal physicality dictates which is easier to apply.....The easiest to apply becomes the best technique for that individual......The player's mind and creative imagination controls the length of the notes based on the musicians inherent understanding of rhythm........

If the technique that doesn't come natural is chosen the player will always struggle blocking fast lines.......Blocking should be easy to master.......Since we are all physically different there will be many variances within each of the two techniques........

Last..........A pick blocker and a palm blocker who truly masters their preferred method can play staccato notes (Extremely short length) as well as every time length of a sustained note according to their phrasing or rhythmic desires.......In other words there is no sustain limitations using either technique.......The only difference becomes tonal, if a palm blocker chooses the sound of a slightly muted note at all times by slightly resting the palm on the strings......That sound is known as Jeff called it, the Chicken' Picken' sound.

Since I was compared to Lloyd....I'll say this.....What Carl and b0b hear in Lloyd Green's muting is the sound or tonal preference he created back in the 60's now known as Chicken Picken'......As for my sustaining notes longer with pick blocking,..... There is as much length of note difference between Lloyd and the other 60's palm blockers whose technique sound inspired me like Emmon's, Day, Charlton, Jernigan, and Chalker.......


The truth is Pick or Palm blocking doesn't limit what style we choose to play.......The sound of the hands becomes a stylistic choice......Players control the sound of their stylistic preference with their technique...........

Joe,

thanks for sharing your journey.

Paul

[C Dixon]

Is the following "Pick Blocking", "Palm Blocking" or a combination of both?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b75msHFynvU

Also one more question if'n ya don' mine. Did Chalker's break on "I'm Making Plans" include an endless sustaining bar, or was it his vol pedal and/or his amp, or his guitar, or his 'strangs', OR his hands; OR a combination of all of the above?

"Inquisitive minds wanta know"

c.

[b0b]

Paul, are you ever called on to play Lloyd's staccato "Chicken Picken" style? Can it be done cleanly with pick blocking?

When I try it, there's pick noise between the notes. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

[b0b]

Received via email:

bOb,

I can assure you that a player of Paul Franklins caliber can easily play the so-called “chicken-pickin’” style with ease, whether using pick blocking or palm blocking.

I’ve heard him do it precisely the way I played/play it.

Palm blocking was part of the new style I incorporated with the Warner Mack record “The Bridge Washed Out” in 1965 and later expanded upon with the Johnny Paycheck Little Darlin’ recordings.

It was a simple and natural feeling way for me to play in that era with palm blocking. I had never yet heard of pick blocking which Franklin later made into an art. However, I think all the world-class players use a bit of both in their music, although Paul is way ahead of the class with conceptualizing and making into an art form, pick blocking.

But keep in mind, all the top players, including Paul, incorporate such ideas as but one ingredient of the many which becomes their musical personality. They’re woven seamlessly into the complete mosaic of the player.

So, whether he does the “chicken-pickin” with either concept, you won’t hear any pick noise.


Lloyd Green

Thanks for the clarification, Lloyd.

[Franklin]

Carl to answer the first part of your question....For a large percentage of that solo Curly was not blocking the strings with either method........It was not necessary because he was mostly re-striking the same strings over again....Curly had such a smooth and flawless right hand that you could rarely see it move when he played ballads...Much like his mentor, Jerry Byrd........Besides that camera angle really did not show the back of his hand to see if he was palm blocking when he switched strings.

Jeff and I taught how no blocking is required when re-striking the same strings......Tom Brumley's "Together Again" solo is a perfect example of how many pro's will not block at all to maintain the long harmonized notes of a ballad solo.......We would also have students play Lil' Roys "ting a ling" lick to show how no blocking is needed to capture that sound...Much of "Blue Jade" can be played without blocking....In fact, there is a lot that can be played without blocking at all. It is still very crucial that players master a smooth sounding blocking method. Blocking is the only effective way to play the entire guitar.

b0b,

Yes, I had to copy a lot of LLoyd's palm blocking style when I played for Lynn Anderson...No problems....What I and I believe every pro will tell you is that everything can be accomplished with either technique.......If you are struggling with something for months of practice.....its time to accept that you should find another technique for blocking strings for that particular style or lick.

Paul

[Paul E. Brennan]

Lloyd's tune Sweet Cheeks has some great chickin' pickin' licks. These sounds can be produced perfectly well using a pick blocking technique.

[Joe Rogers]

Paul, thanks so much for the insights. Well stated as always!


Joe Rogers