What's YOUR TAKE on this controversy?

[Bill McCloskey]

Think of it this way. We know how to to talk and we know how John Wayne talked. But few people can do a great imitation of John Wayne's speech patterns although most of us can do a very generic, cliche based imitation.

When playing, many of us can do cliche based imitations of our heros, but it takes a different kind of talent to nail it. Often the best imitators have no talent outside their imitation: think of Dana Carvey

[Bent Romnes]

Bill, the more I read your posts, the wiser I think you are.

[Tracy Sheehan]

BTW. Moony and Tom Brumley on thier Fender steels didn't sound too shaby either. And Chalker sounded the same back when he did big Hits on big steel on a Fender,as he did on any steel he ever had. Those guys could have made a electrified two by four sound like a black Emmons if they had wanted to.

[Uffe Edefuhr]

Lloyd sounds the same to me on every brand steel he have played on, the same goes for BE or any other great player. Its in the way they play and how there hands are working.
Just what I think!
Uffe

[Johan Jansen]

And that's so nice about the pedalsteel:
What brand or modell you play, it will always sound like you! It belongs to the group of a few instruments, which sounds mirrors your mind and soul....
JJ

[Bent Romnes]

And that's so nice about the pedalsteel:
What brand or modell you play, it will always sound like you! It belongs to the group of a few instruments, which sounds mirrors your mind and soul....
JJ

Johan, so nicely put, and very accurate.

[Clete Ritta]

Two players are inspired by their heroes early on.
Player A loves Hero A and learns everything he can from his recordings.
Player B loves Hero B and does the same.
Neither player A nor B sound just like their heros, but the style and techniques they learn are different and reflect the heroes that inspired them.

A players style is based on what a player likes to play. This will usually include bits learned from the players he or she likes to listen to and has studied, and also new ideas developed from those learned skills.

Ray,
Sarah may sound like Lloyd to you because you hear her play in a style very similar to his. I think her equipment has very little to do with it, but you can bet that she was inspired by him!
Thats my take on the controversy.

I wonder who Lloyd's heroes were (when he was Player A)?
Hawaiian music of 1944 anyone?
...Lloyd Green was born on October 4 1937 in Leaf, Mississippi. He moved with his family to Mobile, Alabama at the age of four, where he began to take music lessons. At the age of seven he learned to play a Hawaiian string guitar..."

Clete

[Ron Davis]

I'm a total newb on psg, but have played drums for 45 years & guitar for 37...
When playing "covers", I have always had folks comment on how well I can sound like the players who's songs I'd play.

In a nutshell, for me, it's all about "feeling" what I feel while listening to those players. That seems to enable be to sorta cop the same vibe/attitude as whatever I'm "reproducing". Then it's easier to cop their feel, pocket & even easier to play their licks.
Then, it's like owning it because I'm "feeling" it.
If I don't fall into that particular "vibe", then it ain't right. So over the years, that has become my thing. I just get into that state of mind, feel, vibe, etc., & crooz on through. Makes it fun... always.

Studying their style/chops, etc., is of course a must, but I know players who can learn to copy stuff note for note, beat for beat, etc., but can never sound at all like the player they're seeking to emulate.
Ya gotta feel it... It's really a state of mind.


Just my 2 cents.

Now if I can just learn how to play this psg worth a darned, I can have some more fun.
rd

[James Martin (U.K.)]

Lloyd Green and I are the same age. He started his musical career when he was seven, I, on the other hand began playing when I was thirty five - how the hell am I going to catch up with him?

[Alan Brookes]

I don't think we learn much from listening to other steel players. We learn more from watching and imitating them, and not even videos are much help there, because you rarely get to see a view of the player's feet, knees and hands at the same time. To sound like Lloyd Green you would have to take instruction from Lloyd Green, and have his talent. Even then, you would introduce something of yourself into your playing. A lot of picking style is picked up by accident. You're just messing around on the steel and suddenly you play something, and think "that sounds good", and you repeat it. Before long it's part of your style.

I think most steel guitarists are self-taught, and they get stuck in their own riffs until they figure out a few more.

There are so many steel guitarists out there that there are bound to be some that sound like others, just statistically alone.

Remember what Jerry said about the guy who was pestering him to buy his guitar. Jerry eventually sold it to him, and shortly afterwards he called Jerry on the phone to ask why it sounded different, and Jerry's response was, "You're not me..."

[Ken Byng]

But if all that's been said here......were gospel

HOW IS IT that Sarah Jory has a sound nearly identical to Lloyd Green?

I'm not talking about style here, I'm referring specifically to THE SOUND! Is SHO-BUD? Is the amp? Is it his black box?

You tell me!

I taught Sarah Jory to play pedal steel guitar from a very young age, and her objective was very clear from the outset - "I want to play like Lloyd Green". You can show people how to play the same notes as someone else but it down to them to play with the same emotion and feel.

It is not always about equipment. I personally don't think that there is anyone who can emulate him perfectly as he is a unique stylist. I agree totally with Herb Steiner, particularly with reference to Lloyd's bar control.

[Tracy Sheehan]

Curly Chalker once said you spend all that time setting your amp to get the tone you want and it only takes a minute or two for a sound man to screw it up. Go figure.

[Ray Minich]

I really love many of the tones and timbres achieved by Jimmy Day. I can sometimes find the exact notes he picked, but I'll never sound like him picken' em.

[Ellis Miller]

Great artists are great in part because they are unique. Wouldn't it be nice if someone were copying you or me because we have our own sound someone felt was worth imitating.

I have always considered learning intros, solos etc "just like the record", a way to build my musical vocabulary and thereby raise my performance level. However, I don't consider that an end in itself. I tend to play my own style which may or may not work depending on the situation. I have a tone and action I am comfortable with and that fits the music I am playing.

I can't help but remember a friend voicing his frustration because the band he was in wanted him to play like Paul Franklin. My friend is a FINE steel player but he didn't last too long in that band.

[Herb Steiner]

I have always considered learning intros, solos etc "just like the record", a way to build my musical vocabulary and thereby raise my performance level. However, I don't consider that an end in itself. I tend to play my own style which may or may not work depending on the situation. I have a tone and action I am comfortable with and that fits the music I am playing.

Ellis, you have a correct and a mature outlook about your playing and music in general.

I can't help but remember a friend voicing his frustration because the band he was in wanted him to play like Paul Franklin. My friend is a FINE steel player but he didn't last too long in that band.

I have no doubt that the guitarist plays just like Brent Mason, the singer just like (insert current hot favorite, male and/or female), and that they probably have the creativity of a small soap dish.

[Walter Stettner]

It is interesting to me that this topic in general is often brought up by musicians. Music, as a creative art form, is similar to painting, building architecture, writing literature and many other fields of art but I have hardly ever heard of painters or writers who were trying to paint or write specifically like one of the famous idols (unless for a specific reason).

I always compare playing steel guitar (or any other music instrument) to learning a language. You need a certain level of technical skills (for a language that would be grammar and vocabulary) but you will never really be 100% at home in a new language until you start to THINK in that language. Our steel guitar idols like Lloyd Green, Buddy Emmons, Jerry Byrd and so many others have taken that important step. Many of us are trying to learn the licks, intros and solos from records or tabulature but end up disappointed because the result is still different from the original. No wonder - you all don't have the same brain and same way of thinking musically like the player who did the original. There are other components, too, like the steel, the amp and a few other things, but the majority comes from the musician's inner feelings, his heart and brain (no other way to describe it for me).

Kind Regards, Walter

[Mike Neer]

Walter, in fact many of the great artist in any media have spent significant time copying their heroes. Van Gogh emulated Millet. Picasso is another who copied (he copied Rembrandt). William Faulkner emulated his heroes (Conrad, Joyce). It is part of the process of formulating one's own style. It's also about learning when to let go and become yourself.

[C Dixon]

Walter, in fact many of the great artist in any media have spent significant time copying their heroes. Van Gogh emulated Millet. Picasso is another who copied (he copied Rembrandt). William Faulkner emulated his heroes (Conrad, Joyce). It is part of the process of formulating one's own style. It's also about learning when to let go and become yourself.

Very well stated and very appropo.

c.

[Walter Stettner]

Mike, you are right, even our heroes are free to admit that they were influenced by others and learned from them but they used the influence to develope a style of their own and didn't stop there without moving on to their own style which often turned into something new and different. My point is that, more or less, everybody should try to come to his/her own style - and that is something that should come from within yourself. A long time ago I tried to learn some of Lloyd's famous steel parts, but I learned very fast that this wouldn't get me anywhere. Lloyd and Buddy and Jerry (and all the other legend players) added such a great deal of personality to their playing that it is almost impossible to follow them. If I play a Lloyd Green lick, it never comes even close to the original...

Kind Regards, Walter

[Clete Ritta]

...I wonder who Lloyd's heroes were...?

Nobody replied to my off topic question, but I'll bet that there's a little bit of Lloyd's heroes in his style. Anyone know who Mr. Green was inspired by when he was, let's say...14 years old in 1951?

Clete

[Mike Neer]

...I wonder who Lloyd's heroes were...?

Nobody replied to my off topic question, but I'll bet that there's a little bit of Lloyd's heroes in his style. Anyone know who Mr. Green was inspired by when he was, let's say...14 years old in 1951?

Clete

Hawaiian players, Grand Ole Opry and probably Jerry Byrd, if I remember correctly.

[Bob Hoffnar]

My point is that, more or less, everybody should try to come to his/her own style - and that is something that should come from within yourself.

Walter, I guess I have a different opinion about that. Some of my absolute favorite steel players working in Texas are really not interested in having a style of there own. They are concerned with keeping the music they love alive. Hearing a guy nailing the Weldon kick off to "I'll Come Running" with Amber Digby singing at an old dance hall is pretty exciting and deeply musical stuff !

[Clete Ritta]

Thanks Mike,

I had a feeling Jerry Byrd might be mentioned. Maybe Ray Montee (the OP) can shed some light on this, as he is way more familiar with both Lloyd and Jerry than I will ever be. Do you hear things Lloyd played that he may have picked up from Jerry? Maybe very early on in his career?

Im trying to get back to the heart of the matter: the influence and style parallax.

Clete

[Allan Jirik]

I've always felt this quote by French banjoist Jean Marie Redon had a lot of substance: "Don't try to copy someone else, you'll never sound like him; always play like yourself, no one will sound like you."

[Alan Harrison]

As much as I admire the great players who do the studio work and travel with the stars and play many difference types of music, I have never tried to copy exactly another players licks. I don't have the talent.

I can kick off, and or play a break on almost any song I hear. However, I have enough trouble sounding like Alan. And I know that there is only one Buddy E, Randy B or Johnny Cox etc. I'm just pretty darn happy just playing like ME.