What's YOUR TAKE on this controversy?

[Ray Montee]

Many of us, at one or another, have taken upon ourselves to try and learn an intro or solo just like one of the famous session players. (Nightlife, etc.)

I liked many a player but there were several that I simply could not 'catch' the key element of their playing to get me really hooked.

Lloyd Green has always been 'the sound' I wanted to emulate on pedal steel and that's why I went to Nashville to buy a Sho-Bud g'tar. I have many of Lloyd's albums........and yet, I can't play a single phrase or lick that sounds ANYTHING like him. WHY is that?

Any idea what it is that attracts we wanna-be's to 2 or 3 'favorite' players and we manage to do a half descent job of sounding somewhat like him, and yet.......what is the factor that keeps us from nailing another artist as easily or well?

Is it all in the EAR?

[John Billings]

"Is it all in the EAR?"

Is it all in the BRAIN?

[Stan Schober]

I have many of Lloyd's albums........and yet, I can't play a single phrase or lick that sounds ANYTHING like him. WHY is that?

Probably because you sound too much like that Ray Montee feller...

[Chris Lucker]

I have never been able to get a handle on that intro lick that Bud Isaacs played on Slowly.

[Bent Romnes]

what is the factor that keeps us from nailing another artist as easily or well?

Is it all in the EAR?

Ray, It's all in the hands that delivers the tune, and in the heart and in the soul. You'll never be able to nail it 100% cause you ain't Lloyd Green. Grant you, it's fun trying.

[John Billings]

"It's all in the hands that delivers the tune, and in the heart and in the soul."

But Bent, my friend,,, that all comes from one's brain!

[Tracy Sheehan]

In my fifty plus years of playing realized from the start that many new comers to the steel believed they were going to sound like so and so if they bought the same brand of steel there favorite players used. It really got out of hand thanks to the internet which also drove up the prices of steels.
The human ear is very fickle and the brain can be very fickle also.As i have posted before when i was coming off fiddle and taking up steel i had the best C 6th and country pickers in the U.S. who helped me.
Any one can copy Chalker,Green or who ever but they will only be copying them as the will not have thier hands or think like they did.
In other words a violinist can buy a Strad but they are not going to sound like Yasha Heifetz,Itzak Pearlman,ect because they do not have thier hands.

It is funny and sad at the same time where people invest so much money in a certain brand or color of steel thinking it will sound better. Hate to bring the bad news. But speaking of the fickle ear,if one believes a black or what ever color steel will sound the best to them, it will.(To them.) Tracy

[Michael Robertson]

Great question Ray, I have pondered that for years.
There is little doubt that there are a myriad of reasons that make the great ones great.
It can be from tone, to picks, to strings, to guitar, to amplifiers, to touch and so on.
For my two cents worth I have resigned myself to the belief the answer is, the SOUL of the artist.
Just as my voice may speak the same words as others it will always be my voice.
In 1981 a good friend of mine sat down at a steel I had just bought (Fender 3 pedals 1 lever).
He tuned it up by ear and then commenced to play the heck out of it.
Had I been smart I would have quit right then and there and not got involved with such a frustrating endeavor as pedal steel……. But I didn’t and here I am……….Still trying…….
That’s my take on it anyway.
Michael

[Herb Steiner]

Tracy, I agree 100%.

I've watched Lloyd Green play, up close, and I think the main reason for his sound is his method of right hand palm blocking without curling his ring fingers, and his left hand control of the bar with slants that are as smooth sounding as pedal/lever moves.

And of course, the way he thinks; straight melody? Single note or chord? Unison on s.1 and 4? "I can see clearly now" octave unison? Push the beat? Behind the beat?

Familiarity with all those things and many more are what is required to "play like Lloyd." I mean, you have to learn that stuff so well that you think in those terms, that it becomes you.

Just MHO.

[C Dixon]

I agree Herb.

I do not believe it is ALL in the hands, however. Give you an example;

Over the years the great JB played a number of different guitars. And different tunings and often it was a different sound all together. This is especially true when he played the Frying Pan and the resonator guitar, versus his favorite prewar "rick".

Now if we compare players, then of course, the hands, controlled by the brain through the heart, plays a major role as to the different sound between players.

But equipment also makes a big difference sometimes when it comes to the same player. Buddy Emmons said words to the following affect once on the stage of the ISGC,

"I've been asked why I stopped playing my Sierra?"

"I loved the guitar, espcecially the bass string sound. But overall, I've got a sound in my head, and I simply could not get that sound out of it, so I am back to my Emmons".

Jimmy day, RIGHT in the middle of a jam session on the stage of the ISGC got up in disgust one night, with the guitar he was playing. He left abruptly and came back a few minutes later with his Sho-Bud, and the look on his face when he played said it all. Prior to that, he continued to try and "tweak" his Peavey Amp. But nothing his hands, heart and soul could do would produce the sound his SB did.

So IMHO, there is more to it than the physical or spiritual when it comes to what comes out of a player's amp.

"Ya 'caint' make a princess out of a sow's ear". And no one is gunna make a Fender 1,000 sound like an Emmons' P/P, (and vice versa) no matter their hands or whutall!

c.

[Barry Blackwood]

Herb, you are so right. It's all in the way you think about playing your instrument.

[John Billings]

Brain.

[Barry Blackwood]

Right brain?

[Bob Vantine]

HEART

[John Billings]

BRAIN. It all comes from there.

[Bent Romnes]

"It's all in the hands that delivers the tune, and in the heart and in the soul."

But Bent, my friend,,, that all comes from one's brain!

John yes, I thought it went without saying that the brain controls all movements, heart, soul.
But the initial question was how does one copy the sound of f ex Lloyd Green. One can't because only Lloyd has Lloyd's heart, soul, hands, brain etc etc

[Wayne D. Clark]

Interesting topic, and I must confess I would like to play like a number of great players, also I would like to Play certin numbers like those great players but I gave up long ago trying. Some one told me to get over it and learn to play the PSG and song in my own stile. They also reminded me that if every one sounded the same there would be no verity no interest and little learning. One is enough of that kind, and so it is wa all have our favorites and most of them have their own sound. well enough of my philosifying {if that is not spelled correctly there is an answer to that also, I,m a poor speller] but you get my point, I hope.

Wayne D. Clark
Desert Rose S10 3/5
Goodrich Pedal
Peavey 110
usnyn2nd@frontier.com

[Whip Lashaway]

I've never tryed to sound like anybody. I've tryed to create my own sound. My dear departed Dad told me to learn the song like the "record" then make it yours. It's already recorded like that, now do your own thing and you "own" the song. Strangely enough, if people choose to tell me I sound like somebody, they ALWAYS seem to say Lloyd Green. But mostly they just comment on my playing and not who I sound like. Don't worry about sounding like anybody but YOU!

[Ray Montee]

But if all that's been said here......were gospel

HOW IS IT that Sarah Jory has a sound nearly identical to Lloyd Green?

I'm not talking about style here, I'm referring specifically to THE SOUND! Is SHO-BUD? Is the amp? Is it his black box?

You tell me!

[C Dixon]

But if all that's been said here......were gospel

HOW IS IT that Sarah Jory has a sound nearly identical to Lloyd Green?

I'm not talking about style here, I'm referring specifically to THE SOUND! Is SHO-BUD? Is the amp? Is it his black box?

You tell me!

For the same reason Wayne Tanner sounds exactly like JB, in more than just a few examples. The late Garland Nash (a JB clone also, could not get over it). In a word, Wayne breaths, eats and sleeps Jerry Byrd, and he has done this for over 50 yrs, just as I am sure SJ does when it comes to LG.

"When there is a will, there is a way". And in these two cases, the will far surpises what most
have, when it comes to wanting to "sound" JUST lack him!

While, it is best to try to develop your own sound, you better have a bunch of "as close as you can do its" in your bag, or you will be huntin' a job.

I saw one of the world's greatest steel players (name witheld for obvious reasons) told by Tompaul Glazer at WSM, "I want you to play it just like Hal Rugg played on the record)". The player told TomPaul in no uncertain terms that he did NOT play like HR. He played like himself!!!

Forunately, Tom accepted, BUT he was NOT pleased! Many other stars would have told the player to leave and "don' let the door hit you in the glutomous maximous on your way out!

On a more pleasant note, I know a steel player who is one of my dearest friends; Tommy Dodd, who has such a stash of hit licks and standards in his brain, that he amazes me constantly. I will share just one example of his awesome prowess in this endeavor:

Years ago in South Carolina before I met Tommy, I attended a SG show. Tommy was playing in the back up band. A guest singer came up and began singing Marty Robbins', "Don't worry bout me" hit recording.

When it came time for the regular guitarist's break, and the guitar player did not know the song, Tommy as fast as lightning, dug into his seat and got out an affects unit, quickly plugged it in and played that broken speaker "break" just like the record.

From that day foward, I have seen him do other "just alikes" many, many times. He is one of the greatest at this, no doubt. Yet he has his own distinct sound as well.

may Jesus continue to bless him with such awesome talents. And may He bless all of you too.

c.

[Duane Reese]

Ray, which Lloyd Green sound are you going for?

You know, Sho-Buds with barrels and 2-hole pullers (which is what I believe Lloyd has on that LDG) have their own sound (I've heard that Fulawkas have a very similar sound)... But then again, he did a lot of his stuff on the "Lightning Bolt" guitar, which I believe is a double-neck fingertip. You've got to know that those aren't going to sound identical, but on either guitar, he still sounds like Lloyd. It's so easy to tell...

Have you ever heard "Too Much of a Good Thing", or "Remember When" by Alan Jackson? Lloyd Green on both of those. The tone is not quite the same as Charlie Pride's live album or "Apartment #9", but it sounds like Lloyd.

I'm not one of these "all in the hands" guys, but are you sure that you aren't vying for something that really is in the hands? I mean, if you got a Sho-Bud, and similar amplification and all, and your hitting the same notes, what else is there?

You know, Ricky Davis has a tone and a style very, very similar to Lloyd. You should hear some of his old stuff with Dale Watson and more recently Miss Leslie. Another guy who sounded a lot like Lloyd (I thought it was) is the guy who played on the soundtrack for "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas", who I'm told is Lynn Frazier (thanks Herb...boy he sounded great). I did that show once, and he does some very Lloyd-sounding grips and riffs. Ask either one of those guys or Sarah Jory for that matter...and try fast and hard palm blocking too...and grip strings 4, 6 and 9 a lot also...

[Charles Davidson]

I never was good enough to copy anyone else,Sorry but I just sound like me. YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

[Jonathan Cullifer]

People sound different in the same way that people form different images of song lyrics or literature. To be able to copy someone's word is to get inside the mind of the creator of that work. Sometimes we nail pieces of it, but it's likely impossible to hit it all. I have players that have influenced me, but when I listen to them, I still have a distinctive style. Also, I notice that I critique my own sound a lot more than other peoples' sounds. As a result, I never feel like I sound as good.

The right equipment united with the right player creates a lot true feeling in the sound. I find it easier to play what I hear in my head when my equipment sounds right and I am in practice. When I don't have to think about either, it's easier. When I do, it's a struggle to be creative.

[Leslie Ehrlich]

Some people say 'tone is in the hands', but I don't buy that argument.

Tone and technique are in the brain. The brain tells the hands what to do, and no two brains work exactly the same.

You can buy the same gear, play the same notes, and even try to pick the guitar the same way, but you'll never sound exactly like your hero.

[Herb Steiner]

Duane
Just a point of correction, the original steel player, the one on the soundtrack recording, is Lynn Frazier, who played a Sho-Bud from the 1960's on that gig.