some advise for guitarists who are learning steel

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 22 Sep 2010 2:49 am

Q: How to sound like a trumpet player?
A: Learn how to play the trumpet.

I bought a pocket trumpet recently and now I get it.
Im beginning to sound like a steel player on the steel guitar.

Clete

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 22 Sep 2010 4:36 am

What Clete said.

I would suggest to a guitarist learning steel that he should familiarize himself with classic solos of the great players of the past (and present), and how to recreate them. In that way, he'll learn to "speak steel."

In other words, learn the vocabulary of the instrument realizing it will take time to effectively say things on it in public.

Years ago when I was just starting out, I felt I'd hit a plateau in learning. My friend and picking partner Tom Dewey said "you just haven't learned to 'think steel' yet, keep at it." Which I did.

I recently located Tom back in LA. He was such a great country singer, and hasn't played music in decades, ironically.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 22 Sep 2010 4:38 am

This is a good subject. It's true you need to "think steel" rather than guitar. But, having played lead guitar it did help me or make it a little easier to learn E9th pedal steel since the (open) fret positions were the same. In addition when I first started I would hear licks and I would work them out on guitar and then transfer them to steel.

But thinking whatever instrument is a must. When I use my Goodrich MatchBro dobro simulator I "think dobro" and get good results from it, judging from comments I get. If I just thought of it as another "effect" then it loses it's impact.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 22 Sep 2010 6:05 am

Good advice, Jack. Spot on!

Elton Smith · Post by **Elton Smith** » 22 Sep 2010 2:35 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJaSZxZJ ... re=related Check out Jerry D.Talk about some crossover.

Barry Hyman · Post by **Barry Hyman** » 22 Sep 2010 4:11 pm

I've been playing pedal steel like a guitar for decades. (Like Clete, I wish I could sound like a pedal steel player!)

Pedal Steel for me is like guitar on steroids -- it can be like several guitars at once, only better-sounding. But I still think melodically, whether I'm taking solos on guitar, pedal steel, harmonica, keyboard, banjo -- whatever -- I listen to the chord changes and then come up with a melody that would be much the same on any instrument. So in that sense, I play pedal steel like a guitar -- the only difference is that I usually try to play the chords at the same time as the melody on pedal steel, which is pretty difficult on guitar. The steel is designed to superimpose melody notes on top of chords, so in that sense it is easy.

All you need is two bionic arms and some super smooth dancin' feet, and knees that never knock together involuntarily, plus supernatural muscle memory and a brain painfully swollen with music theory. When you have all that, pedal steel is easy!

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 22 Sep 2010 5:29 pm

You mean I have to stop thinking of the pedal steel like a banjo ?

But seriously, I think the pedal steel has more similarities with the mountain dulcimer than the guitar.

Elton Smith · Post by **Elton Smith** » 22 Sep 2010 7:40 pm

One other thing I'm learning to do is,when I run out of pedal range I take the nose of the bar and push the string down to get me where I need to be.Sounds just like a pedal,or lever.Mike, this is a great subject for me.Thanks all.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 22 Sep 2010 8:14 pm

Herb Steiner wrote:I would suggest to a guitarist learning steel that he should familiarize himself with classic solos of the great players of the past (and present), and how to recreate them. In that way, he'll learn to "speak steel."

Unfortunately, many of the classic solos played by 'great' pedal steel players of the past are country. I have no interest in learning how to play country pedal steel.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 22 Sep 2010 8:55 pm

Leslie Ehrlich wrote: I have no interest in learning how to play country pedal steel.

Leslie, I have very little interest in playing country, but I believe that learning how to do it is nevertheless worthwhile.

I believe I learn something every time I perform, and the years I spent playing in country bars were an invaluable education on many levels. Building up my chops was only one.

What I was talking about when I started this thread is best described by the example I gave earlier of making the E diminished chord on the 11th fret and raising the E strings, rather than making it on the 12, and lowering the B and G# strings. The former is what I meant be "thinking steel" while the latter would be an example of what I meant be "thinking guitar."

Don Sulesky · Post by **Don Sulesky** » 23 Sep 2010 6:10 am

For years when I 1st started playing steel I woluld play it sounding like my guitar playing.
When I got the guitar feel out of my head and started thinking steel it all came together and the smoothness of my bar and pedals was a new ball game.
Still though today if I'm tabbing out a tough piece I will go back to my guitar and work out the notes and put them on paper then transfer them to steel.
Don

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 23 Sep 2010 6:22 am

The thing to forget is the fast fingerpicking styles used on guitar, banjo and, to a certain extent, dobro. I find myself having to avoid trying to play all the strings and doing a rolling bass with my thumb, and concentrate on playing longer notes, one, two or three strings at a time, which is what the pedal steel is best for. Also, remember that it's an electric instrument, so you don't have to attack the strings with as much vigor as you would with a dobro.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 23 Sep 2010 7:32 am

Two changes I think would help guitar players to quickly get up and running on steel are...
Ability to tune A+B+LKV(B>Bb) = The minor chord of the A+B chord.
Ability to lower G#'s to G = The minor chord of the no-pedals chord.
Now all the major/minor chord positions you know and use for major/minor guitar chords are in the same place on the Steel.
You can play Mellissa by the Allman Bros on your first day now.
This is analagous to being able to play San Antone Rose on the 6th neck... if you can play that, you can play hundreds of swing tunes.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Sep 2010 8:31 am

Mike Perlowin wrote:...the example I gave earlier of making the E diminished chord on the 11th fret and raising the E strings, rather than making it on the 12, and lowering the B and G# strings. The former is what I meant be "thinking steel" while the latter would be an example of what I meant be "thinking guitar."

What beginners often don't realize, and is mentioned in Winston/Keith, is that a pedal or knee lever can be used in two ways; either to raise or lower a particular string, or to reflect that change by movement of another string.

That is what is occuring in Mike's example. Strings 4 and 8 are being raised, but by moving the bar in the direction opposite of the raise, the pitch of those strings remain constant; rather, the pitch of the adjacent strings is lowered by the movement of the bar. When performed correctly, the sound is seamless.

This is one facet of legato playing the steel can accomplish easily, and which is difficult to do in the more staccato-oriented standard guitar.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 23 Sep 2010 8:53 am

Hi Herb.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Sep 2010 9:13 am

Leslie Ehrlich wrote: I have no interest in learning how to play country pedal steel.

Then what I'd suggest to you is this: immerse yourself in the music of whatever non-country player attracted you to steel guitar, and figure that stuff out for yourself, or find someone who's plays what you want to hear and study with him.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 23 Sep 2010 10:09 am

Herb, I'm glad to see you mentioned that the Winnie Winston book explains early on the "reverse" use of the pedals and levers. One of many things that make it an excellent learning source for beginning steelers.

Pete Burak wrote:Two changes I think would help guitar players to quickly get up and running on steel are...
Ability to tune A+B+LKV(B>Bb) = The minor chord of the A+B chord.
Ability to lower G#'s to G = The minor chord of the no-pedals chord.
Now all the major/minor chord positions you know and use for major/minor guitar chords are in the same place on the Steel.

(emphasis added)

This actually points to another example of what Mike referred to: Rather than A+B+LKV(B>Bb) to get the minor chord of the A+B chord, go one fret up, no pedals+E lowers.

About the G lowers I entirely agree--a very valuable change, IMO.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 23 Sep 2010 10:48 am

Brint Hannay wrote:
About the G lowers I entirely agree--a very valuable change, IMO.

I also asgree this change is valuable. So much so that I have it 2 different places: a zero pedal and a knee lever. But I rarely use to make the minor chord. The reason is that it gives you the chord, but does not allow the 3 to 2 scale degree voice motion that you can get with the B and C pedals.

To see what I mean, step on the B and C pedals, pick string 3 and release the B pedal and then pick string 4 with the C pedal down. (Or play string 4 with the C pedal first, then pick the 3rd string without the B pedal and then step on it.)

You can't get those scale passages with the G# lower.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 24 Sep 2010 11:23 am

All of the standard changes are still there, and obviously there is a ton of instructional material available for that end of the guitarists PSG emmersion.
The changes I suggested are simply to give the guitar player an oppurtunity to overlay their pre-existing guitar chord/fret relationships onto the Steel neck.
This is basically like applying "The CAGED System for Guitar" to your Steel.

Glen Derksen · Post by **Glen Derksen** » 24 Sep 2010 4:51 pm

Hmmm....all I know is that when I sit down at my PSG, I can't help but think and play PSG, simply because of the techniques that the PSG calls for.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 24 Sep 2010 5:11 pm

I started out on guitar way back in 1961, then quickly went to mandolin and dobro. But I've been playing steel for so long, I only think in "steel" anymore.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 25 Sep 2010 6:57 am

Case study and true story...
We have a newbie to PSG in town (who is an accomplished Jazz guitar player), playing an S12U, who is primarily interested in the B6th side of the tuning.

I told him it will be easy for me to show him that many of the chords he wants will be at the same frets that they are on guitar, with the right combo of pedal/levers and strings, but you will probably need to add a G# to A raise somewhere along the line to use in conjunction with P6, in order to achieve this.
I then demonstrated this 1:1 relationship on my axe, using the ascending chordal run in HoneySuckle Rose as an example.

Maybe I gave him a bum steer?... What would you tell a guy with a strong sence of Music Theory about where to find all the jazz chords he's looking for within the B6th tuning on the S12U he has???

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 25 Sep 2010 8:34 am

Pete Burak wrote: What would you tell a guy with a strong sense of Music Theory about where to find all the jazz chords he's looking for within the B6th tuning on the S12U he has???

Well, if he only wanted to play jazz, and was not interested in country, I'd tell him about Maurice Anderson's Bb6 Universal tuning, which would probably be better for him.

Ian Miller · Post by **Ian Miller** » 25 Sep 2010 3:20 pm

Pete Burak wrote:
I then demonstrated this 1:1 relationship on my axe, using the ascending chordal run in HoneySuckle Rose as an example.

I realize that this individual probably wants to learn all of this with pedals/levers, but in my mind getting your ears and eyes to work together starting with very simple two-note grips (1 and 6, 1 and 3, 3 and 5, perfect for the HONEYSUCKLE chorus) will make the leap to fuller chords and pedal/lever combos easier, at least it has for me.

Ian Miller · Post by **Ian Miller** » 25 Sep 2010 3:27 pm

Duh, the numbers I used above were note degrees, not string numbers, sorry for any confusion!