Ray McCarthy wrote:Bob--our instrument is much different than a piano in this way: The piano could be tuned JI in only one key.
With steel, we tune it in just intonation (JI) for the open key of E and get all of the other keys by moving the bar up and down the neck. You can't do anything like that on a piano.
The single-note instruments in an orchestra usually play their notes in JI because it makes the best sounding harmonies. Fretted and keyboard instruments have to use a tempered tuning to play chords in all of the keys. The steel guitar doesn't have to do that, but some players tune their steel as though it were a keyboard anyway, for various reasons.
Ray McCarthy wrote:Bob--our instrument is much different than a piano in this way: The piano could be tuned JI in only one key. That's because, for instance, the third of the key,say, the E in the key of C (being tuned flat for JI) could no longer work as the root for the key of E, ETC. But on the steel open (no pedals or levers) strings 3&6 are the thirds of the major chords, and are never used a roots unless pedals are down, and they are then tuned correctly as roots for the pedal-down chord with the nylon tuning nuts.
(I think )
True, but playing single notes would still be "off"
Ray McCarthy wrote:on the steel open (no pedals or levers) strings 3&6 are the thirds of the major chords, and are never used a roots unless pedals are down, and they are then tuned correctly as roots for the pedal-down chord with the nylon tuning nuts.
(I think :? )
When you lower strings 4 & 8, strings 3 & 6 are roots of G# minor.
I am only starting to mess with anything other than ET on a boss tuner. When i play country music, mostly in major keys, I started tuning my G's a little flat, in my other band which plays in mostly minor keys I don't so this. Unfortunately, no matter which way i tune, some voices of some chords are less desirable than others. Example: my LKR drops the E's, i use this playing a G# minor chord, in the G# the Eb (D#) is the fifth of the chord, no need to temper 5th's, equal temperament is only 2 cents off, but if my G# open string is flat I have to tune the LKR flat to keep it in tune with the flattened G#, Then If I play a C# minor (b's raised) The the fifth (G#) is flat.
The only solution I can see is tuning for and favoring certain voices of certain chords, or use ET straight up and have em all sound a little bad.
The only solution I can see is tuning for and favoring certain voices of certain chords, or use ET straight up and have em all sound a little bad.
It was this thread, over 5 years ago - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/010572-3.html - that convinced me that this is not correct for E9 pedal steel. And as someone coming from piano and guitar and having made the transition from 'harmonic' guitar tuning to ET a long time ago and with some difficulty (before tuners, you had to count the beats), my mind was not totally open to this. Read b0b's response to my post and the ensuing discussion, and then try the tuning method he linked to here - http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/just_e9.html
I'm not advocating that anybody "must" or even "should" tune any particular way, but I think b0b's discussion there and a little experimentation should dispel any notion that you can't make the standard E9 change chords sound fine using something very close to just intonation. By making the tuning center a bit sharp, I have been able to make even the flat open-position combinations (like A+F) sound generally OK.
Again - not trying to rattle any cages - I'm doing what I feel works for me, and YMMV. But I think an open mind is very useful here.
you say the adjustable bridge is there for the different gauge sizes...That's true, but why? ..Its there so they can accurately tune the intonation of each string across the entire neck to match the piano which is tuned to ET.......The steel player doesn't have that option.
There are tuners that cost more for their accuracy. I think that was the point about not trusting a 25 dollar tuner. A microphone is never as accurate as rhe human ear.......Some lean on it as though it were.
That's a good point. The adjustable bridge on an electric guitar is to make sure the 12th fret is the same pitch (octave-wise) as the open string. Since we don't have frets, we are at the mercy of a fixed bridge.
Would you mind posting how you do tune? I remember reading how you did long ago
thx
bob
Franklin wrote:Barry,
you say the adjustable bridge is there for the different gauge sizes...That's true, but why? ..Its there so they can accurately tune the intonation of each string across the entire neck to match the piano which is tuned to ET.......The steel player doesn't have that option.
There are tuners that cost more for their accuracy. I think that was the point about not trusting a 25 dollar tuner. A microphone is never as accurate as rhe human ear.......Some lean on it as though it were.
I believe in making life simple. I try to spend less money, rather than make more. Small home in the woods, wood heat, organic garden, don't buy much of anything, live simply, conserve, reuse, recycle, one tiny car for me and my wife, try not to consume much of anything...
I tune straight up A=440 ET (Equal Tempered Tuning), all 12 strings, plus all the pedal and knee pulls and splits, with a $25 Korg tuner. The tuner is about as accurate as my ear, more or less (when I'm plugged into it -- the built in mic is problematic of course) to answer what Paul said.
I can hear the beats inherent in tempered tuning, but I consider psg to be a tempered instrument once you start pressing pedals and knee levers, so I can not comprehend any logical alternative. I am trying to use a lot of different chords that involve unusual combinations of grips, pedals, and knees, so the complexities and compromises involved in JI do not make sense to me, at least yet. Keep trying to convince me...
I also can hear a few cents drop from cabinet drop, but the same strings go up a few cents when you engage pulls that loosen strings, so, once again, I cannot comprehend any logical solution and I just ignore it and/or compensate with the bar. The tuning problems involved with putting the bar in the right place seem about 1000 times as important to me as the compromises involved in ET and the variations induced by cabinet drop, so I just tune simply and quickly (and cheaply!) and try to concentrate on my (sometimes very sketchy!) left hand.
Don't want to fight, don't want to make anybody mad, don't want to criticize what anybody else does. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand how JI works? What I think is that a brilliant solution to this problem (ET) was devised about 350 years ago, popularized by perhaps the greatest composer ever, J.S. Bach, and that is good enough for me. ET is a compromise, but JI seems like a worse compromise to me. But I am often wrong...
Peace and love, my bredren. Got to sleep -- have a funeral of a dear friend and then a big gig tomorrow...
Last edited by Barry Hyman on 10 Sep 2010 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
Bob Snelgrove wrote:That's a good point. The adjustable bridge on an electric guitar is to make sure the 12th fret is the same pitch (octave-wise) as the open string.
A compensated bridge is there to compensate for the fact that pressing strings of DIFFERING gauges down a given distance to a fret will affect the pitch differently on each string.
Ask any luthier.
An open string's octave point will always be halfway..whatever it's length. Check out where you have to play the twelfth, seventh and fifth fret open string harmonics, constant positions regardless of string gauge..
Bob Snelgrove wrote:That's a good point. The adjustable bridge on an electric guitar is to make sure the 12th fret is the same pitch (octave-wise) as the open string.
A compensated bridge is there to compensate for the fact that pressing strings of DIFFERING gauges down a given distance to a fret will affect the pitch differently on each string.
Ask any luthier.
An open string's octave point will always be halfway..whatever it's length. Check out where you have to play the twelfth, seventh and fifth fret open string harmonics, constant positions regardless of string gauge..
What I omitted is that the whole system was devised for the bridges on fretted guitars.
Well I DID say pressing a string down to a fret, and not placing a bar above a fret mark.
I think the only reason you see Telecaster or Stat type bridges on lap steels is to minimise production costs.
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