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Topic: About Fender Amps....??? Ooops, pls move to Electronics |
Chuck Snider R.I.P.
From:
West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV
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Posted 4 Sep 2010 8:19 pm |
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I sure like the sound of pedal steel through a vintage Fender Twin or Vibrosonic!! But, it would be nice to have that sound, yet have a smaller, lighter box to tote around. I'm not too worldly when it comes to various Fender amps. Can some of you folks knowledgable of Fender amps educate me a bit on the various models Fender made, which might be suitable for pedal steel? Are there other vintage (or non-vintage) tube amps made by Fender that might provide a comparable sound, but weigh just a bit less, AND be a bit smaller in size. I realize there can be some weight reduction in a Twin or Vibrosonic by either getting split cabs or installing neodymium speakers. But I would also like to consider a different model which might be a bit smaller and built with lighter transformers.
Thanks,
-Chuck
p.s. - I forgot to add that along with the smaller size and weight, the price would also be in the $700-$1200 range.
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GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad.
Last edited by Chuck Snider R.I.P. on 4 Sep 2010 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chuck Snider R.I.P.
From:
West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV
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Posted 4 Sep 2010 8:23 pm
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Whoops, posted this in the wrong spot.
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GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad. |
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Bill Moran
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2010 8:26 pm
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Chuck,, Look at Ken Fox amps. Lighter, more power and new. Don't have to worry about breakdown. Ken has felt our pain and has built a steel amp of our needs. I don't have his web page but it is all over the Forum. Take a look in the search section here.
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Bill |
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Chuck Snider R.I.P.
From:
West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV
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Posted 4 Sep 2010 8:40 pm
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Bill, thanks, I knew someone was gonna mention Ken's amps. I have thought about them. I visited his shop about a year or so ago, and he was just about ready with the first one then. Unfortunately they are a bit more than I'm prepared to spend at this point. I added my comment about price range hoping to avoid suggestions for Ken's amps. He does make a fine amp, don't get me wrong, just not quite ready to spring for that yet. Never know I may change my mind though.
I appreciate your comments though.
-Chuck
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad. |
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Robert Parent
From:
Gillette, WY
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Posted 5 Sep 2010 4:33 am
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If you don't mind a 12 inch speaker look for a Music Man 112-RD. I have owned a couple since the early 80's and they are great amps. One is a 50 watt version with a JBL (very light and compact). The other (100 watt) is a tad larger and heavier with a EVM series II. If one were to fit either with those new light weight speaker it could be what you are searching for. If you mostly play E9th stuff a 12 works just fine. I have also used a 15 inch extension with the 100 watt model with good results.
Robert |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2010 5:52 am
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I am not sure if you can get too much lighter with smaller transformers. For instance our steel amp with a 15" weights 46 lbs and is around 90-92 watt. Out 4-10" at 30 watt weights in at 44 pounds.
We just did a Peavey Artist 240 (4 x 6L6GC hybrid, similar to the Musiccman era amps) with a 12" SICA Neo while I have been here visiting Tommy Butler. Still a very heavy amp. I think a lot of that was the very thick (1" or so) fine virgin particle board used as a baffle! Nice amp, but those smaller cabs do not quite get the bottom end that oyu get in a Twin size enclosure(such as a Vegas, Session 400-500, etc).
Jim Evans really liked the 4 x10 amp I came out with and thinks the 4 x type enclosures are great. I do as well, the physic behind 4 speakers are very interesting. You get a 6db volume increase over a 1 x cab with the same speaker (same as 4 x the wattage). So my 30 watt amp at 30 watts has the volume of a 120 watt amp with 1 speaker. Also the low frequency response goes twice as low each time you double the number of speakers in an enclosure.
Jim is experimenting with a 4 x 8" enclosure for steel he made and is loving it! I think I want to try that as well very soon.
One of the most kick butt little amps I ever plugged into was an Evans E200 with two very efficient and different model Eminence 8" speakers. I discussed that cab with Scott Buffington at Evans. It was one of his best designs and he and I agreed it night have been the best enclosure we ever heard. It had more kick than a single 15" speaker!!! I can't imagine what 4 Neo 8" speaker could do. I have got to say also that Jim Evans and Scott Buffington (owner of Evans Amps) have become 2 of best comrades in the business. I have a great admiration for the work both have done and continue to do!
So back to the subject! The way to go is an amp cab of finger jointed pine and a plywood baffle for weight and durability. Also the newer Neo speakers are a vast improvement over the older technology, first run speaker of a few years back. Just think, a 15" inch Eminence Commonwealth weights right at 24 pounds and a SICA 15" at 250 watts comes in at 7.6 pounds. That is some serious weight reduction.
We are selling the 12" Jensen Neos for folks to use in the N112 amps with great Results (SICA owns Jensen). These take the amp from 43 to 37 pounds. combined with the newer 2134 chips we sell these amps can produce a great tone and weight in a lot less.
So there are a lot of possibilities out there and a lot more to come!! |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2010 6:36 am
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Chuck, we just weighed the Peavey Artist 240 with the SICA and it is 47 pounds. Even though i si a 4 x6L6GC amp, same as out steel amp and has smaller transformers it still weighs more. Mostly due to the heavy yellow pine that was used (very dense, not as light as the old Fender cabs and the Mojo cans we use) and the 1" thick baffle.
We brought in my my new tube reverb unit which also preamps the signal and tested it thru the amp. Night and day difference with this little hybrid in tome and touch sensitivity. Our unit can go form unit gain to about 1.5 times the signal (and even more if we change the tube from a 12AU7 to a 12ay7). It also acts as a tube buffer and has a variable input impedance.
The unit would be a great way to warm up a transistor or hybrid amp for sure.
I will be over at Sho Pro today and will do a little experiment with it on our amps and some transistor amps over there |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 5 Sep 2010 8:50 am
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| Excellent R&D Ken. This the kind of R&D that the steel community needs. The newer Fender amps have quality issues with their jacks and construction. Its ashame. |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 6 Sep 2010 6:37 am
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Showman head is the same as a twin but much lighter.
Pair it with an ultralight cab and neo speakers and youve got good weight reduction.
Other fender combos? Ive seen people get good sounds thru a super reverb, but thats still kinda heavy. Ive seen people play deluxes but I couldnt hear em playing em  , they just arent loud enough for live steel IMHO.
I own a showman head, but gig my evans 200 head because its ligher and until very recently  it had reverb.
btw Ken, I ordered the closest sized replacement reverb tank for that evans i could find, but it hums when it gets anywhere near the transformer (which makes it hard to use in a head cabinet). ground issue with the inputs and ouputs or what? currently using and liking the hardwire rv7 better anyway. |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 6 Sep 2010 6:53 am
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The input end of the reverb tank must be at the opposite end of the cabinet from the power transformer.
As the input and output impedances are similar on the tank it will work, but poorly if plugged in backs (and likely hum). You can verify easily how to put a tank in:
unplug both connectors from the tank and turn the reverb up a bit on the amp
touch the ends of both cables, the one that hums loudly goes to the tank output.
The Peavey tank also has the input connector's ground isolated from ground of the tank with a small spacer behind the input jack and the tank. Got one a while back that production forgot to install the spacer, thereby grounding the input cables shield to the case! It hummed loudly. Fortunately I had an old tank and salvaged the insulating spacer and rebuilt that new tank. |
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Robert Mayo
From:
Georgia, USA
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Bruce Bouton
From:
Nash. Tn USA
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Posted 6 Sep 2010 3:44 pm
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| Been playing through the Fox amp. Pretty nice! |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 6 Sep 2010 4:04 pm
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| Ken Fox wrote: |
Jim Evans really liked the 4 x10 amp I came out with and thinks the 4 x type enclosures are great. I do as well, the physic behind 4 speakers are very interesting. You get a 6db volume increase over a 1 x cab with the same speaker (same as 4 x the wattage). So my 30 watt amp at 30 watts has the volume of a 120 watt amp with 1 speaker. Also the low frequency response goes twice as low each time you double the number of speakers in an enclosure.
Jim is experimenting with a 4 x 8" enclosure for steel he made and is loving it! I think I want to try that as well very soon.
One of the most kick butt little amps I ever plugged into was an Evans E200 with two very efficient and different model Eminence 8" speakers. I discussed that cab with Scott Buffington at Evans. It was one of his best designs and he and I agreed it night have been the best enclosure we ever heard. It had more kick than a single 15" speaker!!! I can't imagine what 4 Neo 8" speaker could do. I have got to say also that Jim Evans and Scott Buffington (owner of Evans Amps) have become 2 of best comrades in the business. I have a great admiration for the work both have done and continue to do! |
I inherited some HiFi speakers from my father in law that I had always assumed to be based on 15" woofers with something else going on with the mids and trebles. He always listened to classical music, and his system sounded really good. When I opened up the back of his speakers after I got them (curiosity--what was inside???), I was shocked to find a half dozen 6 inch speakers wired together in a series/parallel configuration in each cabinet. No crossovers, no woofers, no tweeters. My father in law was a highly regarded acoustical physicist and knew his stuff. He had been listening to one of these "lotsa little speakers" systems for years, and it did indeed have the punch of the big speakers, but was faster at the same time. If you think about it, the combined surface area of all the little speakers is bigger than a single 15 would be--it can move a lot of air--but, the cone excursion is small, so transients are fast.
I think that Ken and Jim are likely on to something here. |
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Tommy R. Butler
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 6 Sep 2010 8:28 pm
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If Ken would have had his steel amp years ago when I got serious about playing steel I could have saved $10's of thousands of dollars!! I have had three of about everything out there and I am telling all u guys pubically!!!! No need to waist any more time or any more money on anything else!!! Ken's amps are the best steel amps ever made! Just think about the reputation that Fender has, peavey has, Evans & Webb has!!! Ken's amps will far exceed the popularity of all these put together with in the steel guitar community one day!!! Mark my words one day my Fox Steel Amp serial number 0001 will be worth five times the list price !!! If you are out there and you are serious about tone and you keep loosing money everytime you buy an amp that you aren't happy with then most of you guys coulda already bought one and could be spending your time enjoying your sound and wood shedding instead of being aggravated and constantly irritated cause you can't get into playing because your ears are not pleased with what you are hearing!!!! Ken's price is a small price to pay compared to the happiness and confidence this amp will bring into your life!!!!!!  yeah I said it!!! And if u don't believe its true then ask MY peers about my tone!!! Show Pro steel guitars and Fox amps are steel guitar cocaine !!! |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2010 7:55 am
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| Ken Fox wrote: |
The input end of the reverb tank must be at the opposite end of the cabinet from the power transformer.
As the input and output impedances are similar on the tank it will work, but poorly if plugged in backs (and likely hum). You can verify easily how to put a tank in:
unplug both connectors from the tank and turn the reverb up a bit on the amp
touch the ends of both cables, the one that hums loudly goes to the tank output.
The Peavey tank also has the input connector's ground isolated from ground of the tank with a small spacer behind the input jack and the tank. Got one a while back that production forgot to install the spacer, thereby grounding the input cables shield to the case! It hummed loudly. Fortunately I had an old tank and salvaged the insulating spacer and rebuilt that new tank. |
Ken, thanks for your help! I will try your suggestions. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2010 8:47 am
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| Ken Fox wrote: |
| I am not sure if you can get too much lighter with smaller transformers. |
Ken, what do you feel are the pros and cons of using switching power supplies in (otherwise) vacuum tube amps? |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2010 10:11 am
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| Never tried them, but I think it would be interesting. However part of the magic of tube amps comes from the sag of the power supply under load that is a result of the unregulated supply. |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 7 Sep 2010 10:47 am
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Back to the original question:
| Quote: |
| I sure like the sound of pedal steel through a vintage Fender Twin or Vibrosonic!! But, it would be nice to have that sound, yet have a smaller, lighter box to tote around. I'm not too worldly when it comes to various Fender amps. Can some of you folks knowledgable of Fender amps educate me a bit on the various models Fender made, which might be suitable for pedal steel? Are there other vintage (or non-vintage) tube amps made by Fender that might provide a comparable sound, but weigh just a bit less, AND be a bit smaller in size. |
Yes you can get the Fender sound in a smaller lighter package (Deluxe, Pro, Vibrolux, etc) but anything less than a Twin or Showman (4 6L6 = 85 - 100 watts) may leave you struggling to keep up with drums and loud guitars. It depends on the application. If you watch the Marty Stuart show, Gary Carter sounds terrific through a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (40 watts) where the guitars and drums maintain a comfortable TV studio volume level. I doubt that he would choose the same amp for a live concert environment. |
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