Tuning: am I crazy?

[Dave Mudgett]

I think the best thing I ever did viz a viz pedal steel was to listen to many experienced players here who suggested that I put away my preconceptions from piano and 6-string guitar and try tuning by ear for a while.

To me there are two issues: first, for most of the stuff I'm playing on steel, there is a nice audible difference. But the second, and probably just as important - it helped me to focus on my ears, which are the sine qua non of this instrument.

I'm often in a noisy environment when playing. But I've taken advice to just tune by ear no matter what. If I can't tune my open strings with a lot of ambient noise but no band playing, how am I ever going to hear well enough to play in tune using a bar with a full band cranked? And sometimes it's just that - band cranked and a bunch of very loud college students, bottles clanging, blender going at the bar, ...

But whatever works, to me.

[basilh]

I play with a loud piano player who's playing a digital piano, so he's certainly in tune.

Ian

Are you sure about that ? what notes of his are in tune and related to what reference ?

In the studios here, the acoustic piano is tuned an adjusted by ear above the middle 440 A.........Depending on who tunes it. The next octave up is usually between 441 an 442.......The next octave goes up from the last octave.......The steel blends with the track instruments that are in this range..........All string instruments that tune to ET have an adjustable bridge to help ET instruments gradually sharpen at the correct intervals.......Paul

[Jesse Adams]

I'm certainly not trying to disregard any tuning methods used by far better steelers than myself, but pitch is a property of perceived sound. frequency is a property of a vibration or electronic signal. and while they are certainly related, what we perceive as "in tune" is not necessarily tuned to the exact correct frequency. try to play along with some old recordings. johnny cash on one of his live albums is tuned in between two notes according to my "in tune" guitar but you would never listen to it and say that it's out of tune. pitch as a property of perceived sound is relative to the context in which it is perceived. so use these methods, you'll probably gain alot from them but what jim bob said should still hold true. if it sounds in tune, it is!

[basilh]

You are confusing two entirely separate issues, one of individual note pitch related to other NOTES, and one of OVERALL pitch related to OVERALL tuning centre.

jim bob said should still hold true. if it sounds in tune, it is!

Using WHOSE ears ?

I MUST disagree judging by some of the back slapping old boy complimentary remarks to postings of videos and sound files of dubious playing. I think that SOME players have hearing problems induced by over analysis and not being capable of wearing more than one hat.
To be able to listen as a member of the general public is also a requirement of being a complete musician and competent player.

I hear many posting here where the pitch/intonation and timing issues are more in line with a beginner rather than an accomplished musician.

Not that I can use myself as a yardstick, but at least I KNOW I'm not in tune completely.

[Danny Bates]

I don't understand the hats statement.

[basilh]

The capability to wear more than one hat is explained HERE and HERE

or concisely in a nutshell, Function in a different or more than one capacity or position, as in I'm wearing another hat today; yesterday I was a housewife, today I'm an attorney, or I wear two hats--are you asking me as a member of the city council or as a storeowner? This metaphoric expression alludes to headgear worn for different occupations. [Mid-1900s]

Hat one = Wanabee Steel Guitarist.
Hat Two = Member of the vox populi.
et al.

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Gosh Bas,

Since I'm an old Use to Be, does that now make me a Wanabee again........ Or an Isabee

[Ian Sutton]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

I charted my tuner's readings after tuning to harmonics method previously mentioned and have noticed the whole guitar is tuned pretty flat. I'm gonna try playing along to some stuff to see what happens but my chart looks like this after using E 442 as a reference pitch:

B. -10.7
D. -16.5
E. -2.1
F#. -4.8
G#. -13.8
B. -7.5
E. -.7
G#. -10.3
D#. -14.8
F#. -7.7

Did I do something wrong, or is that the inherent nature of this particular guitar?

[Bob Hoffnar]

Looks like you did something wrong to me. If 442 is your reference than your E's should be a little sharp rather than flat for starters.

This tuning method is from Ricky Davis and should cover everything. You can skip reading everything except the chart/method Ricky Davis wrote on this thread:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 8&postdays

[Danny Bates]

I'd add 8.7 to these numbers unless you like riding way up high over the frets. YMMV

[b0b]

If you calibrated your tuner to A=442, then those numbers are right. Most people calibrate their tuners to A=440, then tune the E strings to the 442 mark.

[Ian Sutton]

my tuner was calibrated to 440. and I tuned the E 2.0 cents sharp. That should give me 442, right?

[b0b]

my tuner was calibrated to 440. and I tuned the E 2.0 cents sharp. That should give me 442, right?

No. Each Hz of calibration is about 4 cents. And your measurements show E at -.7, not +2.0.

I suggest that you add 8 to all of those numbers, so that you won't have to aim sharp when playing with a band. It should sound pretty good.

[Ian Sutton]

If I change the calibration to 442 in the tuner's settings and re-tune, will that make it correct?

FWIW I'm using the iStrobosoft for iPhone.

[b0b]

I honestly don't know. I've never calibrated my tuner to 442, and I have no experience using an iPhone app for tuning.

[Bruce Bouton]

Many years ago I went crazy (still am) searching for the best tuning compromise.I sat down at many of the great's pedal steels. Ninety percent of them tuned to a version of just intonation. (like Paul said) . The epiphany probably occured when Weldon Myrick told me "tune your guitar and learn to play it in tune"

[Jack Dougherty]

440.786.......nuff said.

[Tracy Sheehan]

After making my living for over 50 years playing music i stand by what i said. All the instruments in a band should all be in tune with each other. An electronic tuner doesn't know if it is day light or dark. Tracy

[Tracy Sheehan]

After making my living for over 50 years playing music i stand by what i said. All the instruments in a band should all be in tune with each other. An electronic tuner doesn't know if it is day light or dark. Tracy

Think i better explain my self.LOL. I have something which i can not take credit for and wish i didn't have it. I was born with perfect pitch as i have said before. In my first several years of playing i often wondered why everything sounded a little out of tune. I did not understand this until i found out what perfect pitch was. ( A curse.)

I was only then,much later i understood why as a youngster i could tune a piano and violin by ear. Never gave it any thought,just did it.
Now as is said,you know so and so who doesn't know any thing. I didn't even suspect anything.

[Bob Snelgrove]

Paul

Have you ever tuned ET and played with a band? I keep threating to but never have. I did find when playing along with BIAB, ET sounded great but the guitar sounded awful by itself!


thx

bob

Ian,

I didn't know what the terms JI, ET, & MT meant until about ten years ago........Most Pro's tune to an altered version of JI......Country recording work is 99.9% JI.

I believe the Jeff Newman chart was taken from Lloyd Green's guitar.....If you don't trust your ears that is a good place to start.

Pick a method that doesn't offend your ears......The way you tune will not determine wether you're in tune with a band......The way you hear, will.

.....Remember this fact......Vibrato takes a note sharp and flat of its tuned pitch......All the stringed instruments in the bands we work with use vibrato at varied speeds.....Hearing beyond vibrations or beats to find the bands center of pitch is crucial to playing in tune.

Paul

[Bob Snelgrove]

After making my living for over 50 years playing music i stand by what i said. All the instruments in a band should all be in tune with each other. An electronic tuner doesn't know if it is day light or dark. Tracy

That's what my logical brain says; Why should our G# be a different pitch than the guitar or piano? I mean a G# is a G# is a G#, right? Or does our instrument truly have different characteristics than the piano, guitar, sax, etc?

I'm not arguing, I have used Newmans chart forever, just wondered what makes us so "special"


bob

[Barry Hyman]

Yes, Ian, you are crazy. So are many of these other guys who are giving you advice. When you start seeing statements like "tuners lie" you know you are in looney land. Tuners do not "lie,", and Jeff Newman knew this. What he meant is that some people prefer JI to the ET that normal tuners provide.

Adjustable bridges on guitars are not there to compensate for the alleged problems in ET; more misinformation. They adjust for the different lengths required by strings of different diameters, and for the differences in length required by wound and unwound strings. The end result is accurate ET tuning, which is both the norm and the ideal for any fretted instrument.

If you tune to 442, you will be sharp compared to normal instruments which are usually tuned to 440.

bOb is correct that you should not confuse Hertz with cents, although the number of cents equivalent to each cycle per second (Hertz) decreases as the frequency goes up. A "cent" in acoustics is one hundredth of a fret. If you start at 60 Hertz and go up to 120 Hertz (up one octave) you have gone up 1200 cents, but if you start at 3000 Hertz and go up an octave to 6000 Hertz, you have gone up 3000 Hertz but still only 1200 cents.

When you "sweeten" your tuning, some chords may sound better, but some will sound worse. The string that is the third in one chord will be the root in another chord, so if you flatten that string intentionally, you have de-tuned other chords unintentionally.

When you tuned to ET, straight up, did you tune all your pedals and knees and splits straight up too? Some people tune the open strings and don't tune the pulls and then wonder why it sounds bad.

Sorry to be so ill-tempered (pun) about this, but I'll take logic over folklore everytime. I tuned my pedal steel with a tuning fork and harmonics for close to 30 years, so I've been there and done that. Now I tune everything straight up with a $25 tuner, ignore cabinet drop, and sleep better at night. Don't believe everything you read on The Forum...

Don't get mad, guys. Just thought it was time for the other point of view...

Call me "Pitchy." Or maybe "ET, for Extraterrestrial."

[Danny Bates]

Barry, I'd love to hear a clip playing any tone and a perfect 6th above it tuned equal temperment.

Folklore tells us that interval will be beating pretty bad.

[Tracy Sheehan]

After making my living for over 50 years playing music i stand by what i said. All the instruments in a band should all be in tune with each other. An electronic tuner doesn't know if it is day light or dark. Tracy

That's what my logical brain says; Why should our G# be a different pitch than the guitar or afterpiano? I mean a G# is a G# is a G#, right? Or does our instrument truly have different characteristics than the piano, guitar, sax, etc?

I'm not arguing, I have used Newmans chart forever, just wondered what makes us so "special"
know i am sure

bob

Bob you are right on. It was years after starting in music that i learned what tempered tuning meant.
As most know i am sure no instrument can be in (perfect) tune in every key. I won't get in to the theory but as a kid it drove me up the wall because the piano would be slightly out of tune no matter how it was tuned.
Another example. On steel the 7th string can not be in perfect tune with the pedals off or pressed simply because in open E the F# is the 9th of the scale as you know. Press the so called A&B pedals and you change from E 9th to A 6th. Did i get that right as i am doing this in my head.
Back when i started using pedals i added a rod to flat the 7th string when the pedals were pressed
so to be in tune.
Seems i have read where thet is done now with split tuning or something like that. Sorry this is so long and i never said tuners were bad but they are great to retune to a tuning you decided on your own was an intune sound. Korg tuners put out an article about this some time back. Me again.LOL

BTW. Sorry that i overlook at times evey one doesn't have perfect pitch ear,which they are lucky not to have it.

[Ray McCarthy]

Bob--our instrument is much different than a piano in this way: The piano could be tuned JI in only one key. That's because, for instance, the third of the key,say, the E in the key of C (being tuned flat for JI) could no longer work as the root for the key of E, ETC. But on the steel open (no pedals or levers) strings 3&6 are the thirds of the major chords, and are never used a roots unless pedals are down, and they are then tuned correctly as roots for the pedal-down chord with the nylon tuning nuts.

(I think )