12 string players: To D or not to D (universal vs ext E9)

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 4 Sep 2010 2:09 pm

Which tuning do you prefer and why?

I like the Universal, not because of the B6 tuning (which I really don't play) but because of the low B string, which I drop to A on the A pedal. I have the missing D note on a knee lever.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Sep 2010 2:35 pm

Me too Mike. I got used to the D being on a lever in one evening.

Archie Nicol · Post by **Archie Nicol** » 4 Sep 2010 2:58 pm

Obvious question coming, Mike. Why not just use an extended E9 to suit if you don't play the B6?

Arch.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Sep 2010 3:07 pm

Well,,,, I just considered it one big tuning. I'm not a 6th player either.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 4 Sep 2010 3:12 pm

Arch, the U-12 has that low B string. I use that string a lot, sometimes lowered to A. Check out these 2 MP3 from Charles' web site.

http://www.etsga.org/mikeperlowin_Bourree.mp3

http://www.etsga.org/mikeperlowin_Fanta ... a.mpeg.mp3

and this rock video (which I've posted a gazilion times before- sorry about that)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSnoeTWR4I

All three of these are examples of my using that low B string. None of them could be played without it.

Archie Nicol · Post by **Archie Nicol** » 4 Sep 2010 4:03 pm

That's why I said `extended E9 to suit`. Have the low B and whatever bottom three/four string changes that would be more advantageous to E9.

Arch.

Barry Hyman · Post by **Barry Hyman** » 4 Sep 2010 5:55 pm

About a month or two ago I posted a list I figured out of maybe 25 chords that use the ninth string (D or C#) as the root.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

Most of those would be hard or impossible to get if you needed a knee lever just to get the D in the first place.

But honestly? Can't say as I use many of them very much yet. Still learning them. But it is definitely the richest and most varied source of chords on the extended E9th setup. I would never want to lose that D string...

Ryan Barwin · Post by **Ryan Barwin** » 4 Sep 2010 8:28 pm

I'm a D-10 player, and Idon't use the D string much...but there's some useful chords and single-note runs that use that string. I also use it lowered to C# when I'm in the B6th side of E9th (with the E's lowered), or for a 6th sound in E. I could get by just fine (for the most part) without it, or with that note on a knee lever, but I'm used to it the way it is...

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 4 Sep 2010 9:30 pm

i use the D note a lot, and would consider myself handicapped if I had to play without it. But I've not found a situation where having it on a knee lever instead of a separate string presented an unsolvable problem.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 4 Sep 2010 11:16 pm

This is why I've often pondered the possibility of a 13 string Universal tuning with the D note in the ninth position and pulled up to Eb on the same lever that lowers the E's...or maybe lower it to C# on that lever, creating the equivalent to the dedicated D note in the B6 part of the tuning (like BE and Terry Crisp have experimented with.) I think I'd probably still want separate LK clusters though, making for a pretty loaded instrument.

At any rate, I LOVE the extended E9 neck on my D12 (with the D)!!!

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 5 Sep 2010 2:31 am

Love my S-12 as a universal. Changed from extended E9th to E9th/B6th in 1982 ... I get the "D" back on a LKL which also drops my 2nd on a double/lower to C# but I get my "D" fom E-D on the 8th string, Larry Bell does that too and many others. Some get to the "D" by going up from the low "B"

Micky Byrne U.K.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 5 Sep 2010 5:52 am

I played a E9/B6 Universal for many years and about 5 or 6 years ago I decided to drop the low B and move the low G# and E down the the 11th & 12th slots and add a C# note in position nine. I'd heard about BE and Terry Crisp doing it on C6th so that's what you'd have on the E9 if you did it my way. I also have my second string tuned to C# and my LKR raises both the 2nd and 9th C# strings to D. I don't think I'd ever change back as there's so much more you can do with this! As far as the low B, I don't miss it at all, the only time I ever used it was in "Hold It" and "Nightlife".... I hate "Hold It" so this gives me an excuse to not play it and as far as "Nightlife"...... I've worked something out for the steel ride that works very well except I've never got to play it because no one does that song anymore, do they?.........With my set up, when I do need that D string, it's in the 9th slot where it belongs in E9 with my knee lever and the B is right below it and the E is right above it.

Someone mentioned raising their 9th string to Eb (D#) when in the B6th mode, that'd give you a unison so the lower to C# is much better. When in B6th it gives you the same thing as the 7th string F# does when you're in E9, or the II of the scale....JH in Va.

David Griffin · Post by **David Griffin** » 5 Sep 2010 9:05 am

Mike: Zane Kings' new 12 str. tuning has a low B on the 12th str. & he lowers the 8th str. E to D.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 5 Sep 2010 9:28 am

I don't have a dedicated D-string on my S12U.

I do like Barrys and Stuarts lists of 9th string based chords for S12U, though.
I can raise my B to D and play every one of those 9,6,5 - 9,7,5 - 9,7,6, - 9,8,6, etc... grips.
I don't even have to manipulate the tab because my 9th sting is a D... when I need it to be.
S12U also drops string 8 from E to D.

I know guys are always gonna be trying to get a dedicated D string on an S12U, but really... it's like mounting a winch on a Corvette just cuz your used to having one on your F250.

Steve Alcott · Post by **Steve Alcott** » 5 Sep 2010 1:05 pm

"I know guys are always gonna be trying to get a dedicated D string on an S12U, but really... it's like mounting a winch on a Corvette just cuz your used to having one on your F250."

Good one, Pete!

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 5 Sep 2010 2:23 pm

I'm going to try the best of both worlds w/ locking lever, the pedals will be the same as a standard D-10. with a vertical = 5th string B-->Bb

OPEN----------LOCK

F#
D#
G#
E--------------Eb
B
G#
F#
E--------------Eb
D--------------B
B--------------G#
E
B

Zane King · Post by **Zane King** » 6 Sep 2010 7:28 am

Hey Mike! I've recently removed the "D" note and tuned my 8th string to E. I then of course have the D then on a lever. For my S12 this is an improvement for the most part...but still open for debate. However, I have also done this with my s10 tuning. Several folks that have evaluated it so far believe it could be a real improvement for the standard E9 tuning. I'm not sure but I guess time and experimentation will tell.

ZK

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 6 Sep 2010 7:39 am

Are there any famous players whose playing is defined by their 9th-string=D licks?
What songs have a famous 9th-string=D lick?

David Griffin · Post by **David Griffin** » 6 Sep 2010 7:52 am

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 6 Sep 2010 8:03 am

fwiw, No S12U player should have any problem playing Act Naturally. Low E note, D note, or otherwise.
I've never heard anyone say that his use of the 9th string is what defined Brumley's playing.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 6 Sep 2010 8:27 am

Well, it depends on your playing style and how much one has come to depend on the 9th string if one has a lot of time using it. Especially when moving to uni from standard 10 string E9 tuning.

The effect of lowering the D to C# along with raising the 6th string, make for an interesting ending. It is the same note as raising the B to C# with your A pedal, but the effect is different.

Lots of good stuff with strings 4,6 and 9.

There are a bunch of things one can do using the C pedal along with the conventional 9th string D/C# as well.

In my case, I don't know if I want to be without that dedicated D string. I use it all the time for a 7th too. Having to pull it up on a lever every time seems like a lot of trouble to me.

I'm working on a 14 string guitar and had contemplated adding that D in the 9th [10th in this case] position on that guitar, but have not done it as yet.

I can see that on the Universal tuning, grips and conventional C6 intervals will be wider on the lower strings, plus the D will take some getting used to in that context. Probably put it on the E lower lever for a more usable change with the C6 tuning [B6 in this case]. I'll have to see how it works if I decide to keep the 14.

I can see both advantages and disadvantages and I believe one can get used to it either way. It just depends on what is most important to the player.

Tony, I'm interested to see how this works out for you.

David Griffin · Post by **David Griffin** » 6 Sep 2010 8:34 am

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 6 Sep 2010 8:36 am

Jerry Overstreet wrote: ...Having to pull it up on a lever every time seems like a lot of trouble to me.

Why would it be any more trouble than pressing any other pedal or lever?

To my ear, folks have more trouble playing out of the A+F position.

Zane King · Post by **Zane King** » 6 Sep 2010 8:38 am

I'm just a novice on the history of steel guitar players and what they are known for. For what it's worth I know Tom for "Together Again". I view the lowering of the 5th string from B to Bb as coming from Tom. Likely someone else will point something contrary to that but in mind that's a Tom Brumley move for me. So please don't spoil it for me!

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 6 Sep 2010 8:45 am

Mike,

The E9th and C6th are great tunings as they are, obviously not for everyone........Extending each one is even better......

Removing the D string in the E9th is doable chord wise....Not much loss there as everyone here states......Removing the D string, scale wise, is not practical. Eliminating a string that works into so many various types of scales at a fast pace only makes sense to those who don't view the tuning like some do......Its important to understand what its presence brings to the melodic structure of the E9th?.......

Having the D note on a lever does not work well as a scale tool. At a fast tempo it is physically impossible to go in and out of that D note interval to an Eb or E note with a lever as easy as you can strike two strings ..........

To name a few scales that the D string is pivotal in that register, the lydian, pentatonic, dorian, diminish, blues, and chromatic scales are played much easier in that register with the D string than without it........There is so much more than a few chord grips achieved with the D string in the tuning. Some undersell its importance to the tuning.

I believe the uni tunings stand on their own merit.......What I fail to understand is why don't players sell it that way? If I compared the E9th to the brilliance behind any other tuning, it would fall short of the mark......On its own its Mt. Everest.

..........the Bb6th offers options no other tuning can, The B6th/E9th Jeff Newman version offers unique options, Julian's tuning the same, Zane's tuning offers different options......and so does the C6th and the E9th tunings...........Which ever tuning is chosen, we will find things on that tuning that are not possible on other tunings......No tuning or copedant has it all......

Off the soap box

Paul

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12 string players: To D or not to D (universal vs ext E9)

12 string players: To D or not to D (universal vs ext E9)

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