Playing for tips - it can't be right

[Dave Mudgett]

I know it is well possible to do better with the TJ but it is the uncertainty that bothers me.

OK, you're risk-averse on this issue. That is a choice, but not the only way to look at the world. This kind of thing is generally dealt with in a discipline called utility theory - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility

Consider the following choice.

Option 1: You play a 2-hour gig for a flat $50 fee. No matter how many people come in, you get the same money.

Option 2: You play a 2-hour gig for tips or 'the door', no guarantee. Based on past experience, you believe that there's a probability of around 25% that you'll make less than $25, 25% probability you'll make between $25 and $50, 25% probability you'll make between $50 and $100, and 25% probability you'll make over $100.

Questions (binary option):
1. Which option do you prefer if you have a choice of either? (1/2)
2. Would you flatly refuse Option 2 if it was the only possibility. (Y/N)
3. Do you argue that anybody taking Option 2 is 'prostituting' themselves? (Y/N)

If you take a break they all leave. Most bands take one break.

Agreed. Even if I'm in a band taking a flat fee, set breaks, especially long ones, are frequently the kiss of death if you're trying to hold a crowd. I still say that, no matter who is doing the actual payout, it's the paying audience that is paying you. When they stop coming, you're SOL.

[Barry Blackwood]

Dave, how're we gonna demagogue this thread if you keep posting like that?

[Rick Schacter]

Consider the following choice.

Option 1: You play a 2-hour gig for a flat $50 fee. No matter how many people come in, you get the same money.

Option 2: You play a 2-hour gig for tips or 'the door', no guarantee. Based on past experience, you believe that there's a probability of around 25% that you'll make less than $25, 25% probability you'll make between $25 and $50, 25% probability you'll make between $50 and $100, and 25% probability you'll make over $100.

Questions (binary option):
1. Which option do you prefer if you have a choice of either? (1/2)
2. Would you flatly refuse Option 2 if it was the only possibility. (Y/N)
3. Do you argue that anybody taking Option 2 is 'prostituting' themselves? (Y/N)

If you take a break they all leave. Most bands take one break.

Agreed. Even if I'm in a band taking a flat fee, set breaks, especially long ones, are frequently the kiss of death if you're trying to hold a crowd. I still say that, no matter who is doing the actual payout, it's the paying audience that is paying you. When they stop coming, you're SOL.

Since we can only say yes or no:

1. I would prefer option #1
2. Yes
3. No

Regarding the breaks, One of the groups that I play in will play the first two sets (4 sets/night) without a break.

Another group that use to play around here had all kinds of disco type lights and pretty much turned the dance floor into a disco tech during their break.
They didn't lose too many people during their break.
It made for a happy bar owner.

Rick

[Barry Hyman]

I had a tips-only solo gig at a local hotel that is huge and fancy and expensive-looking. So everybody took it for granted that the venue is rich (although in truth they are just barely staying afloat).

The problem was that all the customers assumed that in a "classy" place like that I was getting paid, and that the tip jar, if they noticed it at all, just represented my greed. (Wanting to get paid twice?)

One night two different rich people (who both happen to know me and love my music) came in and sat enjoying the show for a long time, and then left without leaving any tips for me at all. (I always find it humiliating to audibly remind people about the tip jar, and if I had said into the mic that the hotel was not paying me, that would have made the hotel look bad, so I didn't.)

So I quit. I almost never take gigs that don't pay a set amount anymore, but when I do take a job for tips only, I need to get some tips!

No question about it -- live music has been devalued in recent years. Older people stay home, and younger people think all music should be free (because they have grown up with what they call file sharing and what I call theft). People have a surplus of available music with the internet, 700 tv channels, i-pods, and all the rest of it. They still love music but they have lost any idea that it has any value. I make my living teaching music, and gigs provide no more than 5 to 10% of my income. If I had to pay the mortgage from gigs alone, I would rather rob banks...

[Dave Mudgett]

Barry B. - I'll take that as a compliment.

Rick - that is a very reasonable risk-averse choice. But if those a-priori probability estimates are correct, the long-term expected value - average over a lot of gigs - is probably a bit higher for the tip/door gig, especially if the 'over $100' can be a lot over $100. The way I'd think about it - if I really had to have the $50 that night, I'd prefer the fixed-fee gig. But if I just cared about the long-term income, I'd do the door-deal, keeping track of the takes and perhaps revising my choice if I found it wasn't doing so well. I'm a Bayesian. But I've also found that a lot of club managers are also Bayesians - they keep track of how you're doing and if it ain't so great, they lower the fee or fire you.

Mind you - those two choices only discuss purely economic issues. There might be something else about a gig - cool band, other 'bennies', musical growth, more/less fun, or possibly other things - that would tip the balance in one direction or the other. It really truly comes down to what you value, and it ain't always 100% economic. For me, right now, economics is much less of an issue, at various other times it was #1. Nobody can make those value judgments for someone else, IMO.

Barry H. - definitely, if nobody's tipping, what's the point unless it's just a strict fun gig with friends? Personally, if I was playing a place for tips and they were too embarrassed about that to let the band advertise a light tip jar, I'd tell 'em to either pay us or lay out. Personally, I'm (relatively) hard to embarrass, so I don't care about that kind of thing.

What tends to wrankle me about these types of discussions is the laying of heavy 'judgment' on players who do what they feel is in their best interests, economically or otherwise. Utility theory has its limitations, but in some situations does capture the idea of the value of different choices. It works pretty well on economic choices, however perhaps not so well on choices involving things that are more 'intangible'. But even there, it's better than trying to put strict monetary values on things. One can use so-called 'ordinal utility', rank-ordering of preferences, which doesn't necessarily involve putting a strict 'value' on the various choices.

[Chip Fossa]

Well, I charge enough as a plumber. I do my job promptly and never would expect a tip.

I just got a kick out of Allan's first post about a plumber. I had to respond.

Cal, when I go on a plumbing job, I want to get in and get out. I don't waste time messing around with the lady of the house; or any other off-side distractions.

I have a good reputation here in Monson, and I wouldn't gain a thing by messing around. It ain't worth it.

70-80% of my work is from repeat customers. I never tell any customers that I play music. I did so in the past, but I've come to find that letting out that musician side of me has it's drawbacks.

I live two lives, and find it's just best to keep it that way; keep them apart.

[Jim Simon]

This is a very interesting thread which has obviously generated a broad and varied response. I am not a "professional" musician in that I have never supported myself solely by performing. I have gigged for about 50 years from high school socials to bars on Tudo street in Saigon, clubs and bars, corporate events, retailer promotions, winery's, private parties, nudist colonies, cattle drives, and fraternal clubs. I hear a frustration from some here that the value of our work has declined and others lament that we are somehow owed a "fair" wage due to our hard work, talents and ability. Don't get me wrong, I respect and admire musical talent and would like nothing better than to see those with it make a ton of money. There are realities to deal with, however, that cannot be avoided. Cost and value are NOT synominous. Yes, we buy equipment, practice, take lessons, wear fancy outfits, incur costs of depreciation, travel, lodging, repairs, etc. These costs have nothing to do with the value. Value is perceived by the recipient or customer. That customer is the club/bar owner, promoter, patron etc. If we don't create a real or perceived value to our customer we don't receive compensation PERIOD. Our cost is irrelevant. We also have the competition from others who may or may not have similar costs or expectations. Artists (ie painters) don't get paid according to how much the paint or canvas costs or the depreciation of brushes. As musicians we have to package ourselves in a way to increase our perceived value. Much written here pertains to club/bar experiences. In our case we too became frustrated with those conditions and chose to go after the corporate and casual market. We were fortunate to get away from the flat fifty bucks a man or bar owner's "I pay $200 period I don't care how many are in the band" stuff. For us it worked. Not saying it is for everyone. Unions tried to "protect" us with a defined scale. Didn't work except in very small seqments of the business ie movies etc. Unfortunately our barganing chips are deminished because we love what we do #1 and there are so many out there willing to do what we do for less or nothing. Comparison to other professions or trades is apples to duck snot. Plumbers are not plumbers because they love to solder. They make a good living from the services they perform BECAUSE their customers value what they do. My two cents. Not the smartist guy in the world but been around the block. About 3,000 gigs. Never played for tips only but have done promo's and "favors" and frankly would do a tip jar gig in the right setting or conditions for me.

[Roual Ranes]

We have one place that we play for almost zilch but we do that one because it has a nice stage and we play just what we want to play exactly like we want to play it. They can't fire us because they cannot afford a band.............he he he We consider it our JAM joint.

[Dave Hopping]

The flat fifty bucks a night was pretty good money back in 1975,and it still is.

[Chris Walke]

"If they pay me, well that's great. It's just gravy, I'd do it anyway..."
- the Gourds, All the Labor

It's good to get paid. It's better just to be blessed with the talent and the opportunities to play. But...I can say that because I keep a day job.

[Jerry Hayes]

I play a lot for tips around southeast Virginia and proud of it! I played full time for 22 years in the smoke filled bars of southern California before moving to Virginia 25 years ago.

Here there's a scene (Which I had a big hand in developing) where bands play at Hardee's or McDonalds hamburger joints and such. Right now I play at the Hardee's in Portsmouth, Va. every Tuesday night from 6:30 to 8:30 PM and have a freakin' blast doing it!

The place is packed as is about 4 or 5 other burger palaces which have live music from start to finish. People come two or three hours early to get a seat. We get a free meal from the establishment and use a tip jar and sell 50/50 tickets. One place buys a ham and raffles that off during the course of the evening. The least I've ever made is $25 for two hours plus the meal.

The money means nothing as the gigs are just so much fun to play! The crowds are usually the older set and love just about anything we play, including instrumentals and we play 5 or six of those during the two hours.

Every Thursday night I play at a nice seafood restaurant in Chesapeake, Va. which pays us $150 for the band plus a very nice buffet or menu meal, whichever we prefer. We use a tip jar there and also a five piece band so we have $30 apiece before we even start playing! We usually average between $70 to $80 apiece on that one.

There are several Friday and Saturday night gigs in the area which pay a smaller amount or equal and use a tip jar. When we play the Virginia Beach Farmer's Market outside stage we usually average $100 each for a three hour gig.

There are some places here which still use bands totally paid by for by the club but those are usually 4 to 5 hour gigs and not that much fun! I'd rather do what I'm doing as the only gigs I work are fun to do and I wouldn't care if they were for free. I don't have to make a living at it anymore, been there, done that, and I love this life now. I'm retired from any type of day job so life is good. Here's some shots from "tipped" and "partially tipped"

gigs!........JH in Va.

[Theresa Galbraith]

Very cool Jerry!
Every town, city is different. To each his or her own. If you get the call you have the right to play or turn it down.

[Lee Baucum]

Here is a somewhat similar thread from last year.

Click Here

[Cal Sharp]

We all accept tips down on Lower Broad.

[Dave Hopping]

I used to get calls from hobby bands who would rehearse twice a week and gig twice a month pretty much for peanuts,drinks and tips.Their fun,my job.Although gigging is not my only source of income,it is my only job and every time I open my steel case I consider that I've just showed up at work.I had a very hard time getting people to see that pleasurable business is still business and pleasurable time is still money-until I started saying "OK,if you want do all that jamming and all those no-money gigs,I'll jam/gig for free any weekday that y'all want to take off your day job".Didn't get any takers.

Any time someone says that because it's fun it should be free,I start expecting to hear about "from each according to his ability,to each according to his need".Oddly enough,most of the places where that is thought true are not well noted for the creation of music that anyone values.