tuning to each instrument in the band

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 8 Aug 2010 7:42 pm

Last night I was playing with a band that has one acoustic guitar and one electric. For a few songs, the telecaster was flat from the rest of us. Our drummer's brother got up and played, and our guitar player handed his tele off out of tune! He was in tune with himself for the most part. So... I noticed if I pull the bar back a little when he was playing out more than the acoustic, I'd sound better too.

This got me thinking. All the great players out there that can be very selective about who they play with and make a living at it, are just about always playing with people who are in tune. That must be nice.

If you're like me, and that's not always the case, then it adds a real curve ball to playing well, as if learning this instrument wasn't hard enough.

I'm curious to hear other's thoughts on this. What if someone is out of tune, or the singers aren't harmonizing well and you have a part you are supposed to play?

Billy Tonnesen · Post by **Billy Tonnesen** » 8 Aug 2010 8:32 pm

In my experience, if an Acoustic Guitar has a Strait Bridge it will be in tune for about the first five frets and then will start getting out of tune. To be in tune it needs a staggered bridge where the open strings are still in tune when you fret or harmonic on the 12th fret.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 8 Aug 2010 8:43 pm

The situation you describe is all too common. It is damn near impossible to play a steel guitar in tune when other players around you are playing out of tune. And unfortunately it only takes one person to throw the whole band off.

You can choose to ignore the problem and hope things improve. That is rarely a good course of action. I find a good starting point is to suggest that everyone check their tuning as something is amiss, and then I immediately plug my steel into my tuner and start tuning. That way I don't single out one person and get an immediate defensive reaction. And it lets everyone know that intonation is important to me, even if no one else seems to care.

Of course, this only works if the problem is someone playing an instrument out of tune, as an instrument can be tuned. If the problem is out of tune singing the issue is more difficult to remedy, but getting the instruments well in tune should help the singers find their pitches.

One solution that can be helpful when you are at a practice, and you are hearing intonation issues, is have the most likely suspect not play for a bit on a given song. If the intonation problem goes away, then the logical conclusion is the person who was not playing when things were reasonably in tune was the person creating the intonation problems when they did play. You may still get into an argument, but you'll know that you are right.

If you regularly ignore intonation problems your playing and career will suffer.

Bob Vantine · Post by **Bob Vantine** » 8 Aug 2010 9:55 pm

Billy.....

you are assuming rhythm player can play past the 5th fret with or without a capo !

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 8 Aug 2010 10:10 pm

Paul,

I couldn't help but laugh when I read your post (in agreement). I carry extra tuners in my steel seat and hand them out when the guys forget theirs! It happens a lot. Often times before we begin I'll tell everyone to play a chord together, and that usually helps too.

What I'm really trying to say here isn't about how to play in tune(steel or guitar). Being steel players, most of us are sidemen and always trying to play with better singers, pickers, etc, but we have to do our time with groups that don't always sound perfect in order to get in bands that will allow us to play up to our potential. How do you fudge your way through this music?

I'm not expecting any concrete answers here, other than maybe "use your good taste" or something like that.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 8 Aug 2010 10:53 pm

Simple. Don't play with people who can't tune to a consistent source (meters), and don't play with people who sound like a goose is being strangled when they sing. You're just hurting yourself. The people I choose to play with are all smart enough to use in line tuners and have ears. Thats not luck, its a choice. I've refused to play with people who do not have properly intonated instruments. Some don't even realize what it is. Its a waste of time.

John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 9 Aug 2010 12:25 am

When we play at our jam I insist on tuning all the guitars with my Peterson , never have a out of tune problem...

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Aug 2010 1:09 am

Remind them that this is 2010 and tuners cost as little as 5 bucks ! Hard to imagine any player now not having and using tuner.

t

Alan Tanner · Post by **Alan Tanner** » 9 Aug 2010 2:33 am

A somewhat common problem for guitar (and bass) players seems to be that the intonation is incorrect on their instrument. They tune up with open or harmonics, not even checking some fingering positions which would show the error right off. Then, they will insist that they are in tune. It's hard to reason with players who have tuned this way for years and years, or try to explain that intonation needs to be checked with every string change. I have found this to be probably "the" number one cause of "out of tune ness". Now singers....thats another problem altogether.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 9 Aug 2010 4:29 am

Some guitarists will tune their cold guitar just before starting to play. The first song is close to being in tune, but it gets progressively more out of tune as the set goes on. One guy did it this way because he couldn't see the tuner well without his glasses. Finally I talked him into getting a rack mount tuner with a big display. Now he can see it. He's in tune most of the time.

There is a point, maybe when they get about 1/2 fret off, when I just stop playing. I hate the way it sounds. It's funny, a lot of them don't have the slightest clue that they are out of tune.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 9 Aug 2010 6:14 am

Another factor in being "out of tune" is old strings. Some people (either by choice or lack of money) don't change their strings very often. Guitar strings will stretch more in some areas along the length of the string as they age and at some point will be out of tune at the octave. When they get this way, a new string will usually solve the problem. On my old ShoBud years ago, my outside F# was'nt in tune as I played up the neck and I thought it was OK as I didn't have any pedals hooked up to it. I finally put on a new string there and the problem was solved. Since that time I've always changed strings more often but still not as often as I should........JH in Va.

Chris Garner · Post by **Chris Garner** » 9 Aug 2010 6:39 am

Playing with a capo is also a common tuning problem. While a guitar may be in correct tune with open strings, and even open and barre chords, if you use a capo (and it has uneven pressure across the strings) it can cause all kinds of warbly tuning issues.

Michael Robertson · Post by **Michael Robertson** » 9 Aug 2010 7:16 am

Brett, the fact that you know they are out of tune and they don’t, sets you ahead of them.
IMO Kevin Hatton is right. Don’t play with them.
When you are seen playing with “Booby Bovine and the Terrible Tuned Tumblers” you are guilty by association.
You stated:
“If you're like me, and that's not always the case, then it adds a real curve ball to playing well, as if learning this instrument wasn't hard enough.”
Exactly right!
Try to associate with better musicians.
Do everything you can hang out with them.
Maybe get a chance to rehearse or jam with them.
Over time your playing will improve without question.
After the better players witness your hard work and trying to play better there is a chance they will ask you to join their group.
If not, your skills are still improving.
Hang in there.

Robert Harper · Post by **Robert Harper** » 9 Aug 2010 7:54 am

This is interesting to me, because I have seen post where individuals almost get into a shouting match over the best tuning method etc. I kept thinking that surely when you guys are in a club settin, not a recording session, just haow critical is the tunning. I know they are going to have to be relatively closely tuned, but the accracry I have seen talked about on this forum would seem to be impossible to duplicate in a club,outdoor environment. Perfection in these envionment it seems to me to be desireable, but unatainable

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 9 Aug 2010 8:57 am

Robert, here's my take; If you know your particular guitar, you will know what needs to be done to keep it in tune. Guitars that are played every day tend to stay closer in tune. The key is playing in tune with others. They need to make a reasonable effort to get in tune too. If a couple of others in the band drift out of tune, I usually am the first to notice it. If it goes too far, I will remind them to retune. Most just need a little education.

Scott Shewbridge · Post by **Scott Shewbridge** » 9 Aug 2010 9:26 am

To avoid the hurt feelings issue, I like to tell the one liner, often, multiple times:

"Two offers you should never decline - Breath Mints and Guitar Tuners."

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 9 Aug 2010 9:57 am

Thanks for catching my drift Robert & Michael. The only way I could solve some of these tuning issues would be to restring the tele myself, and tune it up before each set for him. I agree with all of the tuning advice listed above, but this is stuff I know and try to tell him. Does he listen? No, he shows up without a tuner.

The fact is, most of the musicians I get to play with these days are great players and have decades of experience over me. Both they and I know it has a lot to do with my improvement over the last couple of years.

A while back, a great bluegrass fiddler told me, "showing up is half of it." I took that advice to heart, and I bet if I was ultra picky about everyone I played with, I wouldn't be in any bands, and would really be missing out on the good ones. The reality for me up here in northern Vermont is; be selective and keep my job, or play with just about anybody who asks. For the pro's out there, there had to be a point when they had to make a similar decision... There's something to be learned from every musical situation right?

ps, I like that one Scott!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 9 Aug 2010 10:47 am

Capos do not cause a guitar to go out of tune. If you are an amateur and don't know how to use one, then yes you will have a problem. Like putting it on at a slant. If your guitar is PROPERLY intonated and the action is well set capos do not throw guitars out of tune. Most all Nashville road bands use them. Professional bluegrass players use them all the time on both banjo and acoustic. I would never bring my acoustic on stage without my capo. My acoustic is intonatd and properly setup up. It stays in tune ALL the way up the neck, just like my Gretsch electric. Its the jerk amateurs who bring @#$#%it guitars on stage that are not set up and don't know how to use a capo thats the problem. Tell that to a Nashville road musician about a capo and he'll have a good laugh. In line tuners also. If everyone has an in line tuner it makes a big difference. I've got a silent one right on the bout of my acoustic. Checking battery strength is also a professional thing to do before going on stage. I opened for David Lee Murphy once and it was funny because both the guitar player and myself were off to the side one hour before the show with our battery testers checking our batteries and our tuning meters at the same time. We both smiled. Its part of being a professional having your instruments properly set up and maintained. Its the @##%it musicians that ruin
it for everyone else.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 9 Aug 2010 7:01 pm

Just use one of those tuning systems where you tune about half the strings and changes "cattywompis" and you won't be any worse out than the rest of them..

A broken clock is right twice a day. Multiply that by twenty...

EJL

Barry Hyman · Post by **Barry Hyman** » 10 Aug 2010 5:20 pm

Paul Sutherland is exactly right here. You have to set a good example, and you have to remind bandmembers to tune periodically without humiliating anyone.

If somebody in my band has intonation problems on a guitar or bass, I will set it up for them at the next rehearsal. Equipment problems are easy to fix -- it is human error that takes delicate diplomatic skills!!

But Kevin, you are only half right. Most capos squeeze guitar strings too hard, and raise the pitch slightly more than what is desired even if the guitar is set up perfectly. Professionals who play with capos usually have one instrument that always has a capo on it, and another that never does. Most capos DO make most guitars go slightly out of tune, that's a fact. Some people who have just the right capo and know how to put it on exactly right can avoid this problem, but that is one in a thousand. I will never watch anybody put on a capo without reminding them to tune again afterwards. (And of course tuning with a capo on causes other problems because often the adjustments to the tuning pegs do not show up in the strings right away because the string is pinched so tightly by the capo, so tuning with a capo on is not simple either.)

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 10 Aug 2010 5:58 pm

I'll tell you another one. How about someone bear gripping a Telecatser with 9's on it till the point where their hands are sweating and trembling. Seen that one more than once also.

Elton Smith · Post by **Elton Smith** » 10 Aug 2010 6:30 pm

Ive been there ,but being new to steel guitar raises a question.Can you or do you set intonation on the steel guitar?

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 10 Aug 2010 7:41 pm

Really, you need to be playing with better musicians.

Bob Vantine · Post by **Bob Vantine** » 11 Aug 2010 10:34 pm

Just rec'd Oct issue of VG magazine and saw a ad from "PLANET WAVES" for a capo w/built in tuner. Can clip onto headstock to tune up then check while using as a capo. Sorry, haven't chk'd $$$$$ , but it exists.

Bill Holt · Post by **Bill Holt** » 14 Aug 2010 8:16 am

Welcome to the life of a musician, Brett. :eek

I have had musicians (not my band) tell me that on upright bass I can move around to adjust when I or someone else might be out of tune. Somehow, because I don't have frets, it's easy to just put it anywhere??? Kinda like putting the bar anywhere that fits.

Ranting on about acoustic guitars...
THANKFULLY, in western swing or shuffle music, a flat-top acoustic guitar playing stirring rhythm (a Nashville thing) is stylistically inappropriate. The comp part of the rhythm should be played by piano (or a guitarist who understands the difference between stirring and comping). I love fine guitar music, but save the stirring for a 2/4 country song, not swing, jazz, shuffles, etc.

Bill (who is a huge fan of James Taylor, Tony Rice, Frank Vignola, Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Andres Segovia, etc.)