Fraud Or Not?

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 23 Jul 2010 8:33 am

Jim,

Here's a link to the original posting of this guitar:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... ght=mullen

Mickey laid out very clearly the condition of the guitar.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 23 Jul 2010 8:43 am

Yes, I'd agree that he did, with nice clear shots of the underbelly. It would appear that the reseller did not, however.

There's also a good lesson here about insisting on good photos of all aspects of the instrument: top, bottom, left, right, before committing to a long-distance purchase.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 23 Jul 2010 9:44 am

There are people on this forum I would never do business with based on their past behavior. Others I would trust implicitly.

Needless to say, this doesn't shock me.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 23 Jul 2010 10:41 am

Bill McCloskey wrote:There are people on this forum I would never do business with based on their past behavior. Others I would trust implicitly.

Needless to say, this doesn't shock me.

tough for a newb to know tho.
even searching the sellers name doesnt reveal the history of abussive posts and other issues a rotten seller might have.

I trust this forum and its members more than any other internet source, but that trust is greatly diminished by incidents like this and that is sad on several levels.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 23 Jul 2010 11:04 am

Ben, I have to imagine you were talking about me when you stated this:

I cant beleive I am hearing from fourm members whom i respect that the buyer should just turn around and re-sell it,

What else is there to do? It appears that when Mickey told exactly what condition the steel was in when he got it and all the work he had to do on it, that folks were more or less, fighting over who could buy it first. So therefore, that shows they didn't care about the cosmetics, old cracks that were repaired nor anything else. They knew it was still a good buy, or they wouldn't have all wanted it. Right?

OK, so what do you expect the one who now has it, is to do? Spend another 3 grand on hiring a lawyer to bring a law suit against Calvin, that would probably never get paid anyway, or just do as I suggested and resell it. I'm still willing to bet it would sell.

I think I'm talking with a lot more common sense than might be otherwise felt by some. My way was at least, a thought out, logical way to rectify things to get his money back, so he can purchase a steel that he'd be satisfied with.

Maybe before people buy they should read exactly what Bob has posted on how to do business over the forum, to protect oneself.

Remember! All people are NOT honest. Not all buyers are either. Follow the rules Bob put down, and there would be no problem.

For the future, at least do this: Each post has the poster's name. Click on the name and you can bring up each and every post that person made. And a whole lot more. Had that been done, the party interested in buying the item, would have known all about it from when Mickey first put it up for sale.

So, a little of this has to be on the responsibility of the interested party too. I say that because it's a known fact that "NOT ALL people are Honest."

Both the other parties, Mickey and Daniel, were both very honest in their dealings. But it seems as though the one selling it to Bob, wasn't.

Bob! You can't ever weed out the bad from good. If so, we'd have had a perfect world one hell of a long time ago.

There comes a point and time, that folks who buy, need to take on a little responsibility of their own when doing business with ANYONE.

That's my statement and I stick by it. Just as I said. Put it up for sale and learn from the bad experience. Other's will know not to do business with the party who sold it to you in his misrepresentation.

Yours Truly
Don

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 23 Jul 2010 12:12 pm

Mr. Brown from your posts on this forum over the years you have my complete respect. I also respect your opinion in this matter and the spirit in which I think your advice to sell the guitar was given.

However, I disagree that the buyer in this instance could have or should have prevented this deception by doing research on the seller or even the guitar, or that he should be expected to shrug it off and look on the positive side

I attempted to do that research myself and it is not immediately available, one has to dig, and one has to have had the advantage of knowing the sellers history. merely clicking on the sellers name doesnt reveal his long history of ...weird combative posts...and this guitar doesnt come up for a couple pages. Furthermore. saying the guitar was just gone over by a well known and respected player and restorationist as the seller did in his ad, but NOT mentioning the issues with the guitar....that is just pure and intentional deception, it is blantantly misleading. "if Mickey just went over this thing, thats all i need to know about it" Thats what I might have said to myself knowing Mickeys rep as a class act. As Tony said, Calvin used Mickeys good name to deceive someone, a newbie to our insturment no less, into buying something that was not truthfully represented.

I felt, and still feel, this behavior is being excused too easily. by you telling him to just sell it and look on the positive side(which granted is probably the only real thing that can now happen to resolve this)and by Mickeys comments also. unlike Mickey, I DONT see both sides to this. I see a guy who blantantly and intentionally deceived another guy, took advantage of his faith in the integrity of the forum membership and took advantage of his newness to the instrument and forum, and now refuses to do the right thing... what any of us would most certainly do if there were any problem with an instrument we sold...return the money. the other side to that would be what again? what other side is there to see here? If its possible that Calvin merely thought the crack wasnt worth mentioning, he should refund the money and sell to someone else, cause I am sorry but a crack like that and a repair like that IS something you mention and photograph before selling!! I suppose now calvin will come on here and say he didnt need to mention it or was having health problems (which somehow seems to absolve people from moral responisibilty)or something and I will be the bad guy...fine ...im the bad guy then.

Mickey has my respect also, let me be clear on that. so much so in fact that if I heard he had just gone over a guitar I would have greatly increased confidence in it.

i know no one can make Calvin be a good and honest person. no one can make him refund the sale. and yes the buyer needs to be careful. I think its legit tho to have a beef with the way this went down and I dont think its right to excuse it so nonchalantly. Tho I am not invovled in this transaction directly, i do often buy things here and had planned to continue buying things here, so i feel this does concern me, and if you sell or buy or ever might sell or buy stuff here it should concern you also.

anyway, mR. Brown, I am sure you are right and the best thing to do now is sell the guitar, or come to terms with its condition and be happy ome happy with it. what a frustrating, aggravating and completely unecessary hassle for the poor new guy tho.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 23 Jul 2010 1:13 pm

Ben,

In reality, I'm just as PO'd that a person would do something like that too. However, after seeing who it was, I'm not at all surprised..

The only thing I keep saying, "When I say it's best to just sell it" is NOT to mean I agree with how it was sold. I absolutely don't agree on that at all.

I hope that helps in where I stand on it. I'm certainly not on Calvin's side. And I agree it was on the way it was sold. So at best, he should have at least described it as it is and stated "Sold As Is." Just as Mickey did.

The thing is, that is now past, and I'd feel that Bob wants to move on ahead. If I'm wrong on that then it's up to Bob to handle it the best way he sees fit to do it.

My way was simply an escape route for Bob.

Best Regards

Don

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 23 Jul 2010 1:21 pm

I think we're on the same page Don. You've given me alot of great advice here on many subjects and i'm certain your advice to Bob in this thread is once again right on the money.
all the best to you Don, and Mickey, and Bob. Bob sorry this happened to you brother.

Eugene Cole · Post by **Eugene Cole** » 23 Jul 2010 2:17 pm

Bob Ripperden wrote:Hi, just to find out how many people think that this should be alowed to happen on the forum.
I purchased a used Mullem on the forum.
The ad read: "am selling my mullen because i have bought another guitar $1400.00 PLUS $60.00 shipping
micky adams rebuilt this guitar just before i bought it its a 3 & 5 standard Emmonds set up
plays and sounds great"
When I got the steel I noticed that someone had made some very poor repairs on the front skirt...a chunk of wood has been glued back in place and front skirt is bowed.
The seller did not tell me of this. He does not deny the damage but won't refund my money. I think this is fraud..should sellers like this be alowed on the forum?

Bob; my first questions for you are:

does it sound and play well?
does it have any issues which have not been repaired or resolved?
how severe is to bow in the apron?

I would like to see a picture of the apron with a straight-edge for reference which shows the severity of the bow. It think that such a picture would be worth a thousand words or more in terms of clarifying exactly what the problem is.

The "....rebuilt this guitar just before i bought it" portion of the listing does seem somewhat deceptive given what I have read in this thread.

The lack of an "AS-IS" clause in the listing is problematic for me; as I too would have anticipated that if I had a major issue with the instrument that i could have shipped it back for a refund (losing only the costs of shipping).

Many years ago I sold a Telecaster on eBay with this crack which I had never noticed.

I had represented the guitar as playing nicely and not having any issues which needed attention. This was only a finish crack and I frankly did not think (even after learning of the crack) that it was pertinent given the age of the instrument.

I none the less gave him a refund and re-sold it on eBay (disclosing the crack) for about $200 more than it had sold for the first time.

I do not know the age of this guitar, the severity of the apron bow, what the seller knew or did not, nor do I know if the seller was aware of the severity (or lack there-of) of the apron bow.

I did review this picture which Mickey posted showing the old repair (you did not see it prior to your purchase). This picture does not demonstrate or convey any substantial bowing of the apron.

This appears to be a fine guitar to me. I suspect that were you to re-sell the guitar here that you would get your money out of it (albeit perhaps not the cost of the shipping).

I think that this situation is unfortunate. And I hope that something will happen which will lead to both parties being happy with the outcome.

Bob Ripperden · Post by **Bob Ripperden** » 23 Jul 2010 7:31 pm

Hi, I know some might not see the bow in the pitchers so I am pointing to it...arrow #1 is where it pooches out and arrow #2 is where the chrome trim came lose from the apron as a result.
Bob

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 24 Jul 2010 6:54 am

Bob this is a strip of polished aluminum that is glued in place...Al little dab of glue and a clamp will mend this effectively...It plays no part in the guitars integrity, and is only there for cosmetic appeal and to protect the edges of the mica. The bowing effect could have been eliminated with a clamp also, when it was repaired

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 24 Jul 2010 7:49 am

Im coming around to Dons way of thinking...that guitar actually looks pretty cool. Best outcome would be to become happy with it, and that does seem possible... maybe even likely, and if thats not possible sell for what you paid disclosing the repair first of course. Still unfortunate and distasteful the way it was sold, Id be pissed too.

No mechanical or tuning issues I presume?

Bob Ripperden · Post by **Bob Ripperden** » 24 Jul 2010 10:02 am

Hi, yes I can glue and clamp the chrome strip, but if I do that the bulge will become more noticeable from the sudden bend in the strip.
Once again this post was not about money, it was about getting it made known to others the way a new member of the forum can be treated and be a victim of fraud by another member when I thought that the forum was kind -a- like a brotherhood of steel guitar players, I’m naive I guess. I’m not trying to gain sympathy, it just makes me sad that a person would do that not only to me, but to anyone.
Whether I sell it are keep it only time will tell, but if I do sell it, it will be on the up- n -up and I won’t try to hide something just for the sake of money. I know that most of the members of the Forum are good and honest people I’ll just have to keep my guard up, and that’s a shame.
Thanks to all that replied.
Bob

Bill Lowe · Post by **Bill Lowe** » 24 Jul 2010 10:32 am

Bob, I saw this old post and it looks like there was a different opinion when it was somebody else selling a cracked guitar

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... c&start=25

Bob Ripperden · Post by **Bob Ripperden** » 24 Jul 2010 12:59 pm

Thanks Bill, you are right the shoe is on the other foot.

Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA Posted 18 Jan 2006 9:31am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
having run a hard wood lumber company for a few years , i can tell you that the crack is not whats called a check here is why
a check is from one of two things (1) it can be from when the tree was swaying back and forth in the wind as it was growing or (2) it most likly happens in the dry kiln when the humitiy was allowed to go to low to fast ,
the crack in the picture happened sometime after the guitar was assembled and without question it runs al the way thru
bottom line : give the man a full refund
------------------
ZumSteel

William Fraser · Post by **William Fraser** » 25 Jul 2010 4:17 am

I have found most forum members to be stand up guys to deal with , including the folks who appear to make a living buying & selling , there is no better place to buy a used piece of equipment . When you sell an item to any one it is a nice touch not to spend the money until you hear from the recipient as to whether they are happy with the deal. I have asked for refunds ,& have given a couple , to advise folks who do not have access to Steel related equipment not to buy without playing it first , would make it diffucult to own a 30 year old Sho-Bud , or Session 400 , in an area that did not have many steelers & still doesn't . If you make an honest mistake & sell a questionable piece of equipment , be prepared to compensate , or you will find yourself the subject of a less than flattering discussion like this . Prices are generally low here & you can ask a few questions re: the sale , & the party you are about to deal with , you are entitled to a partial refund , & should have been treated better . I have used the "search feature the Forum has to re-hash the details on most of what takes place here , & advise newbies to check it out . Short of a rating system ,or printing the names of these individuals in red , or SUSPENDING selling privileges $:\$ based on complaints , what is to stop folks from unloading damaged goods , then running to thier hidey-hole until things cool down. Once it has been established that you were the first to reply do your research & don't be rushed , as this is a bad sign . Bill

Bill Howard · Post by **Bill Howard** » 25 Jul 2010 1:12 pm

I bought a used D-10 emmons off the forum.
in no way is this a reflection on anyone,but the guitar had pull rods off and a bolt was broken on C-6 neck,I repaired it and it is one of the best sounding guitars you ever heard,also one of the best playing AFTER I fixed it,sometimes people do not know about thingsa that are worng others do.
The broken bolt was only discovered after I saw daylight between Key head and body,I put hardened bolts back in it. But still I would probably never buy another sight unseen Axe,I'm lucky I could fix mine like new I guess this is not always the case.
I had a chance to trade this to someone while that bolt was broken and would not consider doing that until it was fixed properly

William Fraser · Post by **William Fraser** » 26 Jul 2010 4:16 am

Hey Mickey , it is nice of you to spend so much time on this subject , what would it cost for the parts to repair ? Labor ? some of your repair work was stuff an ametuer would never be able to tackle ,is the needed repair in that league ? Bill

Stephen Cordingley · Post by **Stephen Cordingley** » 26 Jul 2010 5:20 am

interesting thread, but I'm not sure about the answer to the original question: does withholding information about an item's past history/repairs constitute "fraud?"
if what the seller explicitly states is reasonably true, does an omission of info meet the legal definition of fraud (which may vary in different jurisdictions)?
you can think of many analogous situations, especialy selling a used car...
if a person gets an item repaired and then sells it, is that person legally required to divulge the info about that repair?
i'm not a lawyer, but my guess is "no, it's caveat emptor"
i'm glad to see that people on this forum have such a strong sense of ethics and honesty, but i'd like to know the legal answers to these questions
(i also wonder about the legal issue of slander/libel if people make adverse statements about an individual without knowing first hand the totality of the issue...)

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 26 Jul 2010 9:16 am

Bob, I would be willing to relieve you of your misery and buy the guitar from you for $1400.00 + shipping from you to me. Please let me know. I have students in need of better guitar.
Thanks for your consideration of my offer.
Jerry

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 26 Jul 2010 10:13 am

Bill, as far as repairing the guitar, the question is, what would be the extent of the work? In order to remove the apron, replace, redo the mica etc...It would be just as easy to replace the entire body. Then the issue of tearing down, rebuilding...Probably in the neighborhood of 1000.00 total. The question is...who would want to do this?...LOL...The guitar plays and sounds just fine as is...I like Jerry's idea..!! Looks like this would solve all the issues here, and some lucky guy is going to get a great guitar..PS Jerry, we lovingly named this guitar before we sold it...The Turd!>..

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 26 Jul 2010 11:33 am

Deleted by Danny Bates

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 26 Jul 2010 12:08 pm

If we want a pleasant resoultion to this, that is either for someone to buy the guitar from Bob or for Bob to become happy with it, I think we'll need to stop calling it "the turd".

How bout something more macho like Scarbelly, or The Cracked Actor? or The Calvinator?

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 26 Jul 2010 12:18 pm

Deleted by Danny Bates

Bob Ripperden · Post by **Bob Ripperden** » 26 Jul 2010 3:30 pm

Hi Ben, I like the name "Scarbelly Calvinator"
Thanks,
Bob

The Steel Guitar Forum

Fraud Or Not?

Re: Fraud Or Not?

the turd

turd

turd

Fraud

Buying Unseen

Scam ?

fraud or not?

Turd