Fraud Or Not?

Bob Ripperden · Post by **Bob Ripperden** » 22 Jul 2010 2:34 pm

Hi, just to find out how many people think that this should be alowed to happen on the forum.
I purchased a used Mullem on the forum.
The ad read: "am selling my mullen because i have bought another guitar $1400.00 PLUS $60.00 shipping
micky adams rebuilt this guitar just before i bought it its a 3 & 5 standard Emmonds set up
plays and sounds great"
When I got the steel I noticed that someone had made some very poor repairs on the front skirt...a chunk of wood has been glued back in place and front skirt is bowed.
The seller did not tell me of this. He does not deny the damage but won't refund my money. I think this is fraud..should sellers like this be alowed on the forum?

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 22 Jul 2010 3:07 pm

any damage or repairs not disclosed before the sale is basically fraud and unethical.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 22 Jul 2010 3:25 pm

SO, WHAT are we going to do about it?

The problem occurred.........

Who's going to do anything about it?

WHAT options do Forumites have?

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 22 Jul 2010 3:52 pm

Ray Montee wrote:SO, WHAT are we going to do about it?

The problem occurred.........

Who's going to do anything about it?

WHAT options do Forumites have?

not many I am afraid, typically we attempt to publicly shame the unethical party into making amends, then when that fails, sometimes some good hearted person totally unrelated to the transaction volunteers to make the situation right thru their own services, time and or money.

Barry Hyman · Post by **Barry Hyman** » 22 Jul 2010 4:53 pm

I would never buy a used musical instrument without seeing/touching it first.

Roger Dillingham · Post by **Roger Dillingham** » 22 Jul 2010 5:20 pm

Hey Bob, If my memory serves me correctly I think I do remember Mickey Adams having that guitar, but I think it was for a relatively short time. I believe I recall him referring to the fact that the guitar needed some work, but could be made to play well, or something to that extent. Obviously, if he only had it for a short period & sold it, he must have had someone who was willing to buy the guitar pretty much "as is". I doubt that he would have had time to devote the attention to it that was really necessary. I feel confident that being the "stand up guy" he is, Mickey would have never sold it to anyone without either taking care of the existing problems, or making the buyer fully aware of the existing problems. I bet if you contact Mickey he will certainly remember the guitar, and can fill you in completely on the history as he knows it. I agree this type of transaction is a form of fraud; it is shameful and dishonest, and does not represent the normal dealings one usually receives from a forum member. Good luck on getting any restitution from this member; IMHO his reputation maybe questionable.
Your steel buddy, Roger Dillingham.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 22 Jul 2010 5:24 pm

Barry, I basicly agree, but in this instance some one bought a guitar on the Forum and the damage/repair was not disclosed. I agree that is unethical and fraudulent. There are members here on the Forum I would have no qualms about purchasing a steel from with just a picture and description.

Bob Ripperden · Post by **Bob Ripperden** » 22 Jul 2010 6:15 pm

Hi, I found out from Mickey that he indeed had the it and did not do the repair to the skirt and did disclose the damage. But I guess I was not around at that time. I am basically a new comer. I don't know why, but for some unknown reason I thought the members of the Forum were more honorble. I sure am glad that most are.
Bob

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 22 Jul 2010 6:31 pm

Bob,

You told us everything but who you did buy it from?

I really don't think there would be fraud, but simply a lack of describing in pretty close detail what the steel was like, other than saying it played well.

So if it plays well, that's all it needed to do to be as advertised. I feel possibly you should have asked for complete pictures, or have asked a few more questions before deciding to buy it.

But on the other hand, you got what's probably a real good buy on it anyway, or I'm sure it would have been a bit higher priced.

But I can see your point too. A refund might have been the best way to handle it, or at least something agreeable between the two of you. But I don't believe fraud would be the case.

Just my opinion........?

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 22 Jul 2010 6:35 pm

Ill step out on a limb here...hope no one has a chainsaw close by. This guitar came to me through a friend that had purchased it on the web. He was very disappointed when he received it, because it was in much worse shape than it is now, mechanically. The guitars front apron had been cracked, and a very unprofessional repair had been attempted. But having said this, the apron was stable, and did not affect the tone or playability of this guitar whatsoever. I went over the guitar thoroughly. I used numerous parts from my inventory to make this guitar work...and it does. It had the wrong rods, wrong bellcranks, no nylon hex nuts, cracked bushings, bent pedal stops...you name it. The guitar played and sounded wonderful when I got through with it. The owner wasn't real happy when I told him the guitar was still only worth about 12-1400 max,(he paid mare than this for it) and if he was to present it on the Forum having been overhauled by me, he HAD to disclose the poorly repaired apron, and supply pictures that accurately represented the repair. Which is exactly what we did.
My thoughts were that the guitar would make an EXCELLENT guitar for a beginner that wasn't worried about the cosmetic shortcomings. I think this guitar has changed hands 4 times since. Although there are obviously some unhappy campers involved in the last transaction that has taken place, the guitar is functional, loaded with changes, and sounds REALLY REALLY good! I WOULD play this guitar onstage, anytime..Its still IS a Mullen! I personally feel for both of you... I see both sides..

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 22 Jul 2010 6:46 pm

Click Here

Isn't the Mullen logo in the wrong location?

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 22 Jul 2010 6:51 pm

Its not in the standard location but it is a stock Mullen Sticker and the serial number was verified with Mullen, the guitar is authentic..
Let me go one step further and advise anyone that considers buying an older steel guitar before they get a chance to play it to at a minimum, ask the following:
Year of manufacture
Has the guitar been altered, drilled, tapped anywhere?
Does the guitar currently have damage, or repaired
Is the guitar Standard Height?
What type of lubricants are present/changer dirty?
Has the guitar ever been serviced, if so, by who?
Is all the hardware stock?
What is the pickup output level
What is the case condition?
I always ask this before i even look at the pictures, just in case I miss something..

Bob Ripperden · Post by **Bob Ripperden** » 22 Jul 2010 6:55 pm

thanks Mickey, if it changed hands 4 times since you did the work on it, then the statment in his ad was also misleading, the seller says you worked on it right before he bought it.
Bob

Bob Ripperden · Post by **Bob Ripperden** » 22 Jul 2010 7:05 pm

Lee Baucum, thank you so much, you are right,the logo
is in the wrong place. I encourage everyone to click on your reply and see where it should be!
Thanks again,
Bob

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 22 Jul 2010 7:09 pm

Bob,

Why not try (if you're not satisfied with it) putting it back on the forum for what you have in it. I'm willing to bet that someone will buy it, you'll have your money back, the new person who buys it from you, will know all about it, and still be thrilled by the way it plays, and all will be good to go again.

Learn who to do business with, and who NOT to do business with. I think that would now be the best way to handle it.

If Mickey did all of that work to get it to play as it should, I'll bet she's a damn good playing steel, and probably really sounds good too. Just maybe you got a great buy on a real good steel.

Think positive, there's too much negative in the world these days. So make it work for you in the best way possible. But just maybe if you keep it, it could turn out to be a real good buy in the long haul............

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 22 Jul 2010 7:10 pm

Bob I understand how you feel misled, but I do think that the guitars value is in the ballpark, even in its present condition. I do know the guitar changed hands twice for sure..Yep Don I agree with you.Thats sound advice..I wasnt blowin smoke...this guitar REALLY does play, and sound good...I played her for 3 days before she went...

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 22 Jul 2010 7:50 pm

I bought a supposed EMCI on the forum from a guy who posted pics of it and when it arrived it was a completely different guitar than the pics- even a different color- and was a very early Rayline and the guy said I got a better guitar than the one I purchased and that was that. He promised to make it good well over a year ago claiming that he was a Christian and wouldn't do that to anyone. Needless to say- he has not responded to any communications and I sold a guitar that I paid $1150 for to a guy for $500- made a handsome profit of -$650 on that one. I contacted b0b about and he is no longer a "forumite". That is the only time I've ever been burned by a member of the forum.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 22 Jul 2010 7:53 pm

If Mickey says it played and sounded good, then you can take that to the bank. I'm sorry he got drug (dragged?) into this mess.

Failing to disclose the "issues" with this guitar may not have been fraudulent, but it certainly wasn't ethical.

That's no way to treat a fellow Forumite.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 22 Jul 2010 7:56 pm

I still feel the seller of an instrument is oblidged to disclose everything they know about it and anything less than this is unethical. I am surprised this is being accepted . I cant beleive I am hearing from fourm members whom i respect that the buyer should just turn around and re-sell it, or just be happy with it because it plays well, despite having cosmetic flaws that were undisclosed.

Im going to have to seriously re-evaluate my purchasing here.

Steve English · Post by **Steve English** » 22 Jul 2010 8:26 pm

Bob,

Can you post some up-close, detailed pics showing the chunk of wood glued back in place, and the bowing of the skirt?

Sounds horribly unethical....I'd just like to see to what degree.

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 23 Jul 2010 5:27 am

If Bob doesn't get them posted, I will post some of the damage when i return from NYC this evening.
Every guitar that crosses my bench gets photographed in detail, and cataloged for just this reason..

Bob Ripperden · Post by **Bob Ripperden** » 23 Jul 2010 6:07 am

thanks to everyone for your comment. beleive me it's not about the money, I may have purchased the steel even with the damage if I was told.
this is not about anyting other than the way it was fraudulently sold. I feel that the Forum should be a place of honesty and integrity a fraternity of upright men where you can get honest advice, honest answers and honest dealings, not a place to be deceived. I think the dishonest people should be weeded out.
Thanks Again.
Bob

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 23 Jul 2010 6:17 am

Mickey Adams wrote: I told him... if he was to present it on the Forum having been overhauled by me, he HAD to disclose the poorly repaired apron, and supply pictures that accurately represented the repair. Which is exactly what we did.

It doesn't appear to be exactly what the seller did at all. At least not in this thread (http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=187271) which has the original offer and notice of the guitar being sold. He didn't mention any flaws, only that you had just rebuilt it. (Was there a different thread where he revealed the flaws?)

It would appear that he used your good name, Mickey, to misrepresent a guitar for sale. Knowing your reputation for integrity, I would expect you to be a little exercised about this...

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 23 Jul 2010 7:14 am

Don Brown, Sr. wrote:Bob,

You told us everything but who you did buy it from?

Looks like one Calvin Walley, from the links in the thread.

Steve English · Post by **Steve English** » 23 Jul 2010 8:20 am

Appears that you've been bamboozled Bob.

Calvin was very aware of the mica problem. Looks like it was certainly made aware to him by Danny Cormier.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... t=#1567077

Both Danny and Mickey have never been anything short of the best people to deal with.

It's obvious that Calvin had had extensive knowledge of the issue. If you weren't informed of the flaw, then I believe, at the very least, you should be due a complete refund.

If I'm not mistaken, Calvin's livelihood is sales, which makes this transaction, and his refusal to refund your money even more despicable. It's because of these types that the phase "let the buyer beware" was coined.....sad but true.

"Get a rope....."

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