Equal Temperament VS. Just Intonation?

[Ryan Barwin]

I use equal temperament. That's what sounds good to me, especially with other instruments. Sometimes I'll adjust the F# strings slightly. But usually I don't.

[Dave Mudgett]

Unless it's a total din and I can't hear anything, I tune by ear but not generally using harmonics - so I don't fit your poll. The amplitude of harmonics is so much lower that it makes it harder to hear them with other stuff going on (like on a gig), and I'm not generally playing harmonics most of the time - most critically, I want the intervals composed of fundamentals to sound right. For me, I think interval training is the most critical element.

What I wind up with is some type of meantone, but on E9, the critical intervals are pretty close to just, but compromised a bit so that the lesser-used intervals aren't awful. For example, the E=>Eb lever is commonly used in so many different ways, I can't imagine it's possible to get every possible interval it's used with to come out perfect. I've tried a bunch of formula ways to tune - they're fine, but in the end, the guitar either sounds good to me or not. The harder problem is really playing in tune in all situations, and that's a combination of ears and the mechanics of playing - and something I'll still be working on till I'm too feeble to hold a bar.

If it is a total din and I really can't hear anything, all these tuning niceties are an academic exercise. In that rare situation, it all goes out the window - I just grab on for dear life and do the best I can. Probably the biggest reason I switched to ear tuning is to train my ear to hear correctly - as much as possible, in as many situations as possible - Paul Franklin explained this best in a thread several years ago, and at this point I agree.

IMO - YMMV, tune how you want, any way you want, and then, in the immortal words of Frank Zappa - "Shut up and play yer guitar." And I might add, the real challenge is to play in tune as well as possible.

PS - I won't bore you with the mathematics - it's back on one of the tuning threads - but the beat frequency of a non-harmonic interval is proportional to the frequency difference from harmonic. So the beats get slower and slower as that frequency difference gets smaller - you don't hear the beats if the notes go by fast. Add to that the fact that it's generally harder for the ear to critically distinguish frequency differences as the note sample time is shorter, and it becomes pretty clear that notes or intervals being precisely in tune is less critical for rapid, staccato passages but more critical for slow, sustained passages.

[Jeremiah Wade]

I've been using the 0E9 sweetener on the stroboflip.

My Rains has very minimal cabinet drop. ( The E's drop 4 cents flat with AB pedals down.)

Tune your B and G# strings open, mash AB and hold tune AB raises. From the with the pedals down I tune all strings open, followed by most other changes and splits.

I then mash and hold my BC pedals and tune the C pedal changes by ear strummin 3,4,5, and 6. I also tune my franklin pedal changes with A and B released. Hope this helps. If your guitar has more cabinet drop try using the "SE9" setting.

[Carson Leighton]

All this talk about tuning, and the various types of electronic tuners that are available has got me wondering what muscians did years ago..I can't help but wonder what did Hal Rugg, Curley Chalker, Weldon Myrick, Buddy Emmons and a lot of the other great steel players do..Did they start with a tuning fork,,a reference note from another instrument, or maybe they had a tuner,,since they have been around for a long time..Maybe there is someone out there who could tell us...
These people did a pile of session work,,and most eveything included a piano in the mix, and I can imagine the pianos were tuned to ET..The steels sound pretty darn good to me and they sound in tune, at least most of the time..Another thing, we didn't have "pitch correct" back then,,you just had to do your best, and I think there was a more human feel to the sound....Regards,,,Carson

[Terry Sneed]

I use the SE9(Jeff's Chart) on my Strobo flip. I'm happy with it, as long as it puts me in the Promise Land.

Terry

[Mike Wheeler]

Carson, in the "old" days, the one fixed pitch instrument in a studio was the piano. So, it determined the tuning reference for everyone else...since everyone else had tuning keys to play with.

And, yeah, there were more retakes back then, to fix bad notes and such, but the final result was a living/breathing sound that just can't be synthesized. The slight imperfections in tuning, timing, phrasing, etc., were beautiful to behold.

Regarding the topic, and in my opinion, the "greats" like Buddy, Lloyd, Weldon, Curly, and so on, tuned in whatever way necessary to blend best with the rest of the band. Their tuning methods weren't identical, which gave a uniqueness to the sound of their guitar...not the notes they played, but the sound of the tuning they used. I've always thought that was just amazing.

[Jesse Leite]

Thank you all for your feedback! I was thinking the poll result would be more one-sided, but it seems it's pretty split between ET and JI (or by ear). Makes my head hurt even more. To each his own I guess.

First, tuning by harmonics is what any steeler should know ; no one should be without it. How was life before tuners? ...... Those who just choose the sweetened tunings on a peterson, Buddy or Jeff's charts rather than go through the rigamarole of harmonic tuning will be close enough & thus stand before the promised land.

I agree CrowBear. I think you summed it up best. Learning to tune by ear can only help. Developing a custom tuning chart based on what you HEAR is important. And for those who would rather just pick a common tuning chart and run with it, they will be close enough to that promised land

...The WORST thing about these kind of threads (and why I almost regret starting this one) is how some argue claiming their way is the only way to tune. It seems to me that the pedal steel is impossible to tune perfectly without some sort of compromise, right? This means that depending on how you compromize, the tuning possibilities are endless.

[Rick Winfield]

I use the Newman charts, then I tweak the strings, making the instrument in tune with itself.
Rick

[John Groover McDuffie]

I selected "made my own custom chart", but actually I don't make a physical chart. My tempering numbers are real easy to remember.

ditto

[David Doggett]

I was thinking the poll result would be more one-sided, but it seems it's pretty split between ET and JI (or by ear).

Hunh? The arithmetic says only 17% tune straight up ET. 72% use JI (by approximate chart or ear) or something in between. And 11% use something unknown ("other"), but that is clearly not ET. So that's 17% ET, 83% something else. That's about what I would expect, and not at all evenly matched. But of course, it's not a popularity contest, and I agree with the rest of the stuff in your last post, Jesse.

I agree with CrowBear that charts that are out there that were developed for one specific guitar and set of ears, are close enough that they seem to work for lots of players with similar guitars and ears. There’s a rule of thumb that within 5 cents (about 1 Hz) of the target is close enough for practical purposes. And I think Eric’s idea of measuring how much things vary from the ideals in music as it is played is instructive, if you have the equipment.

Rather than tune the Es to a standard with the pedals down or up, I split the difference. For me that comes out to 441, and keeps the open strings from sounding too sharp or flat when playing open at the nut in keys like E and A.

I’m most intrigued by Mike Perlowin’s experiments with piano and strings. He stated that in guitar band and steel jams it didn’t seem to matter much whether he was tuned ET or JI. But with the chamber people he took their advice and only tuned ET. How would they know how to tune a steel guitar? They seem to be assuming it is more like a piano than strings and horns. Strings and horns peg the overall pitch of the instrument to an ET standard, but they use their lips, fingers and ears to play as close to JI as possible. Over the years the time honored way to tune a steel guitar is the same. Peg your root string to an ET standard and do the rest by ear. I propose to complete the experiment he’s started. Tune JI one time with the chamber group, but don’t tell them. See of you or they can tell a difference. The fact is people have used steel guitars tuned by ear to JI playing with pianos and orchestras since the beginnings of recorded steel guitar, and it mostly sounds great. Oddly enough, top pros have said that some studio engineers give the opposite advice from Mike’s chamber friends; they won’t let a steeler tune ET in the studio. I’m not sure they know any more than Mike’s chamber friends. There may be some steelers that can tune ET and sound fine in the studio.

I always come back to the same thing. Try it both ways, and in between. Listen to how much difference it makes, and go with what works best for the situation.

[Larry Bell]

I always tune with the B pedal down. I tune E F# A B D notes to 440. That gives me beatless octaves and almost beatless fifths. It ends up about 441 with no B pedal. I tune G#'s and C#s and D#s to 439 and F's to 437. Once I'm sure the pedal stops are in tune I just tune that E7sus chord and check the 1st 2nd and 7th strings -- takes 30 seconds -- and I'm in tune on a gig. Like b0b says, it's easy to remember. Everything else, I just tune by ear.

For what it's worth. Find a way that works for YOU and be happy with it. NO TUNING METHODS ARE PERFECT and, once your bar hits the strings and the strings warm to your hands, IT'S A NEW BALLGAME.

[John Groover McDuffie]

There’s a rule of thumb that within 5 cents (about 1 Hz) of the target is close enough for practical purposes.

It is worth pointing out that the relationship between cents and Hz is different for every pitch.

In equal temperment A2 (guitar 5th string) = 110Hz, G#2 = 103.826Hz, A#2 = 106.541 Hz.

Ergo the interval from G#2 to A2 is 6.174Hz and 1c = 0.0617Hz, the interval from A2 to A#2 is 6.541Hz, 1c = 0.0654Hz.

Two octaves higher, G#4=415.305Hz, A4=440Hz, A#4=466.164: so for G#4 to A4 1c=0.241Hz, for A4 to A#4 1c=0.247Hz

reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

[David Griffin]

The thing that cracks me up about all these tuning threads & arguments is: It all goes out the window as soon as you lay the bar on the strings! Truthfully,NOTHING,including pianos,is truly in tune.Flame away,bros!

[Bent Romnes]

,NOTHING,including pianos,is truly in tune.Flame away,bros!

True, that's a fact of life. BUT, like I said earlier, my guitar sounded most in tune than it ever did, after tuning it the way Jesse explained.

[John Groover McDuffie]

In the words of the great Red Rhodes "Once you put your left hand on it all bets are off!"

That being said, I did think my PSG sounded better once I switched from ET tuning to my personally tempered tuning, compiled with the help of Earnest Bovine. Thanks, Earnest

[Jesse Leite]

Hunh? The arithmetic says only 17% tune straight up ET. 72% use JI (by approximate chart or ear) or something in between. And 11% use something unknown ("other"), but that is clearly not ET. So that's 17% ET, 83% something else. That's about what I would expect, and not at all evenly matched. But of course, it's not a popularity contest, and I agree with the rest of the stuff in your last post, Jesse.

Good thing I'm not a math major! Like you say though, none of the poll options win any popularity contest. Obviously NO tuning method is perfect; this poll proves that.

I’m most intrigued by Mike Perlowin’s experiments with piano and strings. He stated that in guitar band and steel jams it didn’t seem to matter much whether he was tuned ET or JI. But with the chamber people he took their advice and only tuned ET ....I propose to complete the experiment he’s started. Tune JI one time with the chamber group, but don’t tell them. See of you or they can tell a difference. The fact is people have used steel guitars tuned by ear to JI playing with pianos and orchestras since the beginnings of recorded steel guitar, and it mostly sounds great. Oddly enough, top pros have said that some studio engineers give the opposite advice from Mike’s chamber friends; they won’t let a steeler tune ET in the studio. I’m not sure they know any more than Mike’s chamber friends. There may be some steelers that can tune ET and sound fine in the studio.

I agree. I think if a steel player can PLAY in tune with their bar, I would be willing to bet that most chamber groups wouldn't notice that said player was tuned JI! ...If tuning JI by ear using harmonics has worked well on countless classic PSG recordings over the years, then it's good enough for me (especially since I don't play with a chamber group)

...my guitar sounded most in tune than it ever did, after tuning it the way Jesse explained.

Once again, good to hear Bent! I am also extremely happy with the results Burke helped me achieve. I have tried comparing my new custom chart to tuning my whole BMI by ear using harmonics. Comparing the two methods, the results are VERY close. However, the ease and speed of using my new chart makes it a winner for me. As Crowbear said though, everyone should know how to tune by ear. What if your tuner fails at a gig? Or what if one of your changes still sounds sour even after tuning up to your chart? Trust your ear.

CONCLUSION: ET vs. JI? ...The replies this thread has received have been all over the map. I think it's obvious that there is no right answer, and I think we have learned all we need from this thread. I don't see any good in continuing this thread as I think it would cause endless debating over which method is "better". Unless other members object, I would like to move a motion for Bob to close this thread. Once again, I would like to thank all who have contributed!

Thanks,
Jesse

[Bent Romnes]

Jesse, you are a fine diplomat.
I second the motion.

[Luke Schneider]

I have been experimenting with tunings quite a bit lately. In the first few years i played pedal steel, I played ET, mainly because I wasn't unhappy with the sound and I figured if it wasn't broke don't fix it.

Gradually I started to realize that sometimes I was playing the same licks as the pro players but it didn't sound nearly as tuneful and pleasing on my guitar. I tried a JI chart. Obviously I liked how major triads sounded but I hated everything else, and I sounded out of tune with the band. Went back to ET, but I still wasn't happy with that.

Then I found this chart:

http://www.larrybell.org/id32.htm

This is the tuning I use all the time now and I programmed it into my peterson. I will usually edge up my top E just a tiny bit to find a happy medium for my cabinet drop. Sometimes i'll tweak my F# by ear, and I'll sometimes tweak my A and B pedals just a little bit by ear as well. But this chart is my starting point. I've been recommending it to a lot of guys lately.