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Topic: Working with the sound guys |
Rick Myrland
From:
New Orleans
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Posted 29 Jun 2010 7:15 pm |
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I recently played out with a new band for the first time. We did a sound check early in the day and I thought everything was "in check." But, come show time I thought I was killing everyone on volume, at least from what I was getting out of the monitors, but turns out I wasn't as loud as I should have been (thru the mains).
How do you deal with this? How do you explain to the sound guy that you want the monitors to mimic the sound coming out of the mains? Any ideas or suggestions? Does this question even make sense?
_________________
Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120 |
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Jonathan Cullifer
From:
Gallatin, TN
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Posted 29 Jun 2010 8:56 pm
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99% won't get it and never will. They will treat you like any other electric guitar that wants to only hear themselves in the monitors. That's what separates the good sound guys from the bad.
I have gotten so tired of monitor guys that I usually just avoid the issue altogether. No mix is usually better than a bad mix. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 29 Jun 2010 9:11 pm
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| Quote: |
| How do you explain to the sound guy that you want the monitors to mimic the sound coming out of the mains? Any ideas or suggestions? Does this question even make sense? |
That's a tough one, Rick, for starters 90% or more of the folks operating sound systems don't know very much about the music they are supposed to be enhancing with their equipment, and a frighteningly large proportion don't know much about the equipment or even the basic theory and methods necessary to do an effective job.
That's just how it is and there is no time or space here for detailed socio-economical analysis of why it is so. Suffice it to say that as performers we get what we get and we have to accept this fact or go mad trying to fix what cannot be fixed.
As for the actual question you are asking, the answer is NO, it does not make sense from either a technical or an artistic perspective. The stage monitor system is designed to provide foldback to the performers so that they can hear each other and themselves adequately enough to perform well. Not only is it NOT designed to provide a perfect album mix to every musician but trying to do so defeats the purpose in a hurry.
For instance, if you put as much bass and kick drum in the monitors as most folks want in the house the inter-modulation distortion will pretty much guarantee that the singers cannot hear themselves sing adequately. Conversely, if you added the already amplified bass, guitar, steel, etc. to the house mix at the same relative levels that the musicians are generating on stage it would be a nasty mix for the audience to put it kindly. The idea is that with a well-managed foldback system the individual players and singers can hear themselves well along with whatever is most critical for ensemble work THAT MIGHT OTHERWISE BE INAUDIBLE FROM THEIR LOCATION ON STAGE, the stage right players getting some of the stage left folks in their mix and vice versa, there is certainly nothing to be gained by folding back the already over-cranked lead guitar amp that is already right next to you, is there? More often than not, guitar amps and drums are louder than the venue indicates before the PA is even turned on and even with them completely out of the mix the sound mixer's evening is reduced to futile and unrewarding damage control. Not the time to discuss theory and practice with the band....
After more than thirty years in the businesses of playing music and providing sound reinforecment I can easily say that I know more excellent pedal steel guitar players than I know excellent sound mixers. It's a skill position that commands real wages and is extremely hard to fill anywhere in the world, but finding a knowlegeable and communicative professional to tend to your audio needs is the only way to get what you really want, a great sounding stage mix, which is not achieved by doing what you are asking for. |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 29 Jun 2010 9:29 pm
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The only time we have a real soundman up here is when Dave Grafe comes up here otherwise it's monkeys! 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 29 Jun 2010 10:01 pm
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This isn't exactly relevant, but I once saw a band called the Cheating Hearts that had 4 vocalists, do a really smart thing. They brought their own small PA to the gig, and got their own vocal mix through a speaker that was then miked and fed through the house sound system. There was no way the sound guy could screw up the vocal mix.
BTW Sneaky Pete was their steel player.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 3:13 am
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| After far too many experiences such as you mentioned, I now carry a "Hot Spot" powered monitor to any job employing a sound company. I then inform the sound "tech" not to supply me with one of their units and to please turn my instrument down in the monitor mix....The Hot Spot mounts on a standard mic stand, is run directly from my amp, and provides me with complete control over how much of myself I am hearing in relationship to the rest of the band. |
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Steve Becker
From:
Daytona Beach FL
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 5:59 am
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A lot of sound guy bashing goin on here!
Sure, there are more bad ones than good ones, like any other position, but the good ones will be responsive to your needs, and remember that they are working FOR YOU. It is true that most of them tend to mix the steel too low in the mains, for most steelers taste, but with a little patience and diplomacy they can be 'trained'. I like to set a little digital recorder back by the board and tape the whole night. It serves several purposes- primarily to give me feedback on my own playing, tone, volume etc., but also to hear how the band is sounding AND the live mix. I'll listen to it after soundcheck or during the first break to make sure it is in the ballpark, and then talk to the sound man about any changes I feel need to be made. If you approach it right they usually don't feel too threatened by your 'extra set of ears'. But it's true- the good ones are hard to find and worth the big $ they demand. |
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Chris Dorch
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 6:56 am
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| Steve Becker wrote: |
| ...and remember that they are working FOR YOU. |
Incorrect.. It's a job. They are there because they are paid to be there. They don't care about you. Most sound people are annoyed with people being annoyed at them so they just don't care or respond. Yes, a good sound man is worth his/her weight in gold.
A few bands ago, we had a "staff" sound man. He would come to every show and run the house boards or when we traveled with sound, he'd run it. He was at our practices, he knew how we liked to sound and he delivered. We also paid him well and covered his travel/expenses.
You want to sound good at every show? You want to sound the same at every show? Hire a sound person. Otherwise, you are at the mercy of anyone or anything - anywhere. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 7:12 am
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I've found that treating the sound crew with respect and just TALKING TO THEM can (I said CAN) make a difference. Many of the live FOH engineers I have worked with are unsure of how the steel should sound in the mix. Most tend to end up with a very thin, unpleasant, tinny sound.
I give them a good strong, balanced signal from a good direct box (I use a Radial JDI with a Jensen transformer) and tell them that the highs should be rolled off a bit, scooped out a bit between 700-900Hz, and add some lows and low mids. Most really do WANT to make it sound good but don't know what they're listening for. I sometimes have them listen to WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE AMP, EQ-wise.
Some will bend over backwards for you if you treat them nicely. Some won't give a rat's A$$. That's just life -- the luck of the draw. I've had sound guys who just LOVE the steel guitar and they are a pleasure to work with. Many of them have been younger guys with heavy metal T-shirts on who really thought pedal steel was a cool instrument with a unique sound (which it IS).
Bottom line is you'll never really know what FOH sounds like in real time -- while you're playing. However, if you don't give them some direction / feedback on how you'd like it to sound -- and do it in a diplomatic manner -- you are at their mercy.
_________________
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12
Last edited by Larry Bell on 30 Jun 2010 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Adam Goodale
From:
Pflugerville, TX
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 8:33 am
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I generally want to choke most of them... they Always pull me down in the mains below the lead guitar, last week our road manager had to yell at the house sound man to turn me up on the board, and had to convince him that pedal steel was a lead instrument in our band. From the soundmen that i have enjoyed working with, this is what i have learned. Most sound engineers do not understand country, or even what it supposed to sound like. And 2, they dont understand that we use a Volume pedal the way we use it... they try to compensate for our volume pedal going up and down by pushing the knobs on the board up and down... which ALWAYS results in crappy levels. just my experience with some good, and really bad, sound men.
_________________
Emmons P/P's into the loudest amp I can get ahold of. No effects other than reverb. EVER!. Come catch a show and be sure and say hi! |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 8:39 am
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GOOD POINT, Adam. I never give them more than 2/3 of my volume pedal AND tell them that I bring my level up or down with my vol ped and it is INTENTIONAL. I also tell them that sometimes I am playing chord pads that are SUPPOSED to be quiet and, within the same song, may play a single string solo that needs to be heard over the ENTIRE MIX.
That's if they seem to care . . . sometimes they DO.
The riding the slider thing is something that drives me NUTS. The best sound engineers I've worked with are 'set it and forget it' guys but some think they get a bonus for how often they twist knobs and change levels.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 8:40 am
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What Larry said. Many times, just a nod and acknowledgment to the crew can help you. You're really at their mercy, so don't p#$%'em off. In a big venue, they can pull you down to where you are completely inaudible. One thing for sure, if you're not consistent with your volume pedal, they will just fade you out, period.
Like said, sometimes it's a crapshoot. Like at the big deals opening for major acts, the sound people will hardly even acknowledge you're there. Overall though, you get more flies with honey than with..... |
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Scott Henderson
From:
Camdenton, Missouri, USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 9:11 am
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When I was on the road I would explain to them that it is needed to mic my amp instead of a direct box because I use various tone settings depending on what song I am playing on. So it is best to just mic my amp set my EQ flat and let me take care of the tone. Of course I also do this while I am setting up my guitar so while I'm talking I'm spinning a steel guitar leg in my hand. (Don't hurt that I am 6'4" and 250 lbs!!) I also use reverse soundcology. I only give them half a volume pedal and keep telling them "That's all I got!" Then I play full volume.
I kinda joking.
_________________
D-10 JCH Dekley U-12 D-8 Magnatone Mullen RP Evans RE 200 profex 2 BJS bars
Dentyne gum (peppermint) |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 9:22 am
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| Thanks for the kind words, Stu, I have been informed by one of your local expert monkeys that sound molecules behave differently in Alaska.... |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 3:52 pm
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every sound guy I know is also a working performing musician. only when I see a PA on sticks do i worry
I did sound here in Seattle for a while at the Crocodile ( a decent sized club with national acts).
Its a mostly thankless and lame job.
7-3am, pay was $50, the "musicians" treated the houses gear like crap, never a thank you. bands never showed up on time for soundcheck, rolled their svt fridge cabs over my cables, moved the mics i had just placed and so much more. Completely clueless and without any social grace at all.
Just tell the soundman what you want politely and thank them, and realize they can and will work with you if you treat them with an ounce fo respect. come in with the attitude i see in this thread and yes...i dont care about you or how you sound. When you motion for me to turn you up in the monitor I will fake like I am moving a slider but adjust nothing, then look over at you. You will give me the thumbs up as if to say "much better, thanks!". |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 6:48 pm
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Do 'mains' check first, then 'monitor' check second.
Most good good sound men prefer this method and turn off monitors, along with full volume on stage test!!
Note!
When asked to give full volume as a steel player that normally means half pedal un less you bury the pedal all the time! If you bury the pedal at sound check, dont exspect to be heard though the mains at a gig unless he travels with you and knows the rules!!!!
Argue all you like, It's the 'Cold hard truth'!
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Chuck Thompson
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2010 7:46 pm
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| From my experience I can say that what Larry and Ben said about being respectful is true. I usually tell the sound man that HIS job MIGHT be easiest IF he sets my volume for the max that he hears at the sound check and leave it there along with telling him that i trust his first instincts. I ASK them if i can place my mic and if they arent getting what they want they can move it. I ask them to set the eq to match what he hears from the stage as close as possible - no FX and no steel or my guitar in my monitor. If there are multi monitor mixes he can give anyone else what ever they want but i hate steel or guitar blowing back in my face. Anyone who has ever done that for me has been happy - im happy and havent heard complaints from any audience yet on that. A guy who is a fader rider can make a mess of things real fast imho. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 1 Jul 2010 7:46 am
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| Quote: |
| I have gotten so tired of monitor guys that I usually just avoid the issue altogether. No mix is usually better than a bad mix. |
Ditto.. in my experience the odds are that you'll be much happier without a monitor at all.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2010 8:59 am
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"How do you deal with this?"
Large caliber "snubby" in the packaseat! 8^) |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2010 11:32 am
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| You pull the trigger first! |
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Mike Archer
From:
church hill tn
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Posted 1 Jul 2010 12:16 pm sound techs
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be kind to the sound guys as best you can
it goes along way getting you what you need
also...ive found that keeping steel out of you own mix helps you and sound guys
that way they can put you in other folks mix and keep stage vol down a lot more
I never cared for the sound of my steel through
a monitor anyway what with the horn and all
the lower your stage vol the more out front
you should be or at least hope to be
IMHO Mike  |
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Steve Becker
From:
Daytona Beach FL
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Posted 1 Jul 2010 3:06 pm
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Chris,
I was referring to a dedicated or staff soundman when I said they were working for you. If the soundman is being provided by the club or venue, they obviously don't have that much of a vested interest in your sound or opinions. I would agree with the 'treat them with respect' advice, and hope for the best... |
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Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2010 3:21 pm Be kind to the sound guys
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I am likely fortunate, here in New Orleans there is such a large festival/function market, I rarely meet a soundman at a large venue who doesn`t do his best. After a number of years on the scene, we get familiar, and usually all is well.
I allways introduce myself, build a good foundation of mutual respect, and thank them after. They really appreciate it, and you likely will see them again.
The only time I have a problem, sometimes they don`t understand we are a retro act.Western swing,Honky tonk, and Rock a billy.It`s not like mixing a rock act.No thundering Bass and kick drum. Bands didn`t play at ear splitting volumes in the 40`s and 50`s. We`ve become good at explaining when needed, but they usually get it.
Also, they have never mixed a steel, but I`m told they don`t bury it. I`ve worked with a few bad ones,but not many. This is a music town, and they get it.I just had to stick up for the local guys here. Rarely a problem. |
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Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2010 4:26 pm
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I just did a big gig yesterday -- Empire State Plaza, Albany, NY. The sound guys were great, very professional. They never asked or complained about the volume pedal -- I just played the way I usually do during the sound check, from heel down to halfway depressed, and they set the levels accordingly. So the balance on stage was fine and the balance out front was fine, my friends tell me. I could be soft, in the background, or I could be out front, cutting right through the mix.
My amp was behind me, so if they ran me through my monitor mix at all, I couldn't hear it, which was perfect. My only complaint was that they are used to deaf rockers, and so all the monitor mixes were way louder than we needed. Once they turned them down, it was all good.
I have done sound for a lot of musicians, so I have been on both sides of the fence. Most sound guys are idiots, yes, but then most musicians are idiots also. Now and then there are a few intelligent exceptions, and the trick is to notice when you are dealing with a halfway intelligent person. I treated these guys with respect and an understanding of the difficulties of their job, so they took real good care of us. I'm told we'll probably get the gig again next year, so something must have gone right...
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I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
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